fixed Wings snap at low g's

[AeriaGloria]

The real ones.

 

As for the override, a quick stab won’t override it but if you check the grid with the control indicator(I think it’s Rcntrl enter) it can go full but takes a moment or two of holding full stick. With the control limiter held down you can move the stick instantly, but if you just hold the stick back without the stick limiter you will see the in cockpit stick hit the increase in force but still moves slowly all the way back. Looking at the control indicator you see a bracket that signifies this limit, and as you move the stick all the way back it moves down.

 

It’s basically trying to simulate the natural slow down any pilot moving the stick would have when bypassing the increased weight in spring force that overrides the limiter

Edited November 22, 2019 by AeriaGloria

[Ironhand]

The real ones.

 

As for the override, a quick stab won’t override it but if you check the grid with the control indicator(I think it’s Rcntrl enter) it can go full but takes a moment or two of holding full stick. With the control limiter held down you can move the stick instantly, but if you just hold the stick back without the stick limiter you will see the in cockpit stick hit the increase in force but still moves slowly all the way back. Looking at the control indicator you see a bracket that signifies this limit, and as you move the stick all the way back it moves down.

 

It’s basically trying to simulate the natural slow down any pilot moving the stick would have when bypassing the increased weight in spring force that overrides the limiter

 

 

 

And pulling the stick back more slowly yields the same result.

[AeriaGloria]

I see. I would try with only four missiles but away from my computer for a few days. However correct or incorrect, it looks like it shows you going past 8G before the structural failure, hard to tell. I can’t see the speed super well but it does look like you were over Mach 1.2 which if I remember correctly is when the G limit goes back 8? Certainly looks like you never bypassed the limiter.

EDIT: I’m certainly for having BlackPixels tracks looked at. Always welcome to hear from someone at ED about it

Edited November 22, 2019 by AeriaGloria

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all

 

I have spoken to the team and looked at the track replay's

 

At high speed and with a lot of weight there is a lot of forces working on the wings, especially with any high speed oscillation.

 

thanks

[Teknetinium]

G limiter should not allow to brake wings! The pilot don't need to think about Gs becouse there is G limiter for different regimes. Lol have we ever seen any Su-27/33 brake apart, This is a clear bug. Where in the manual can you read that you can snapp wings with G-limiter on, G limiter is counting with missile weight on! On top of that in the test the Su-33 has 4,5Tons with 2xER-27.

 

Plz make Su-33 G-limiter as on Su-27/11 even if they pull only 7Gs but should be at 9Gs depending on fuel and weapons.

 

Its not oki, Pilots that have been flying for 15 years Break wings every competitive event while other aircrafts are not having same aggressive approach. You cant tell me to adapt to this when its a clear bug. ED fixed it for Su-27 but did not do it for Su-33. Su-27 had same problems three years a go.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Teknetinium

[BlackPixxel]

Hi all

 

I have spoken to the team and looked at the track replay's

 

At high speed and with a lot of weight there is a lot of forces working on the wings, especially with any high speed oscillation.

 

thanks

 

Are we really expecting soviet/russian engineers to be that stupid that they do not know about some effects that happen at high speeds? So that as a result the g limiter they develop for their own plane does not work at high speed?

 

Your posts makes it seem as if game developers have more knowledge about this aircraft than the aircraft engineers themselfs.

 

The G-limiter in the DCS Su-33 is just not programmed correctly, and it should be very easy to fix.

 

On top of that we have now for years stress damage on red birds but not on the blue fighters. This inconsistency in realism creates an unrealistic advantage for one faction.

 

At high speed and with a lot of weight there is a lot of forces working on the wings, especially with any high speed oscillation.

Does this not apply to american planes as well? How does the F-15C with full weapon load, full fuel tank and 3 full external tanks pulls 12g at Mach 2 without any damage?

[AeriaGloria]

I don’t know if it’s completely outside the realm of possibility. The early Flankers do have an issue with high G, that’s why the G limiter decreases to 6.5 G at Mach .8 and goes back up by Mach 1.2. It is different plane but the early MiG-29s has the same issue, and say that the issue is structural integrity of the vertical stab, atleast on MiG-29s. You could also question why the engineers made it a fixed G limit and not correcting for fuel and arms load. There has to be a reason for that atleast, such as limited computing power of the era. Supposedly this wasn’t fixed until Su-35.

While I am inclined to believe ED, it certainly wouldn’t hurt to get more confirmation from someone in the know about expected behavior. I’ll run my own tests as soon as I get to my computer

[Teknetinium]

Then Chiz ask me why we tell him ED is BIAST big time! I dont want to get in speculations, G limit should now allow you to brake wings, simple!

 

MIG-29A dont have any G-limiter as I know.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Teknetinium

[Ironhand]

I don’t know if it’s completely outside the realm of possibility. The early Flankers do have an issue with high G, that’s why the G limiter decreases to 6.5 G at Mach .8 and goes back up by Mach 1.2. It is different plane but the early MiG-29s has the same issue, and say that the issue is structural integrity of the vertical stab, atleast on MiG-29s. You could also question why the engineers made it a fixed G limit and not correcting for fuel and arms load. There has to be a reason for that atleast, such as limited computing power of the era. Supposedly this wasn’t fixed until Su-35.

While I am inclined to believe ED, it certainly wouldn’t hurt to get more confirmation from someone in the know about expected behavior. I’ll run my own tests as soon as I get to my computer

 

If you watch the controls indicator while maneuvering in both aircraft across a range of air speeds, the two diverge remarkably as speed increases. I’m comfortable with ED’s response only if the the real-world Su-33 manual includes the caution in bright red letters: CAUTION: Maneuvering at high speed is expressly forbidden.

[Teknetinium]

ED plz listen to your costumers we are not asking for something unrealistic, but by you not fixing the bug makes competitive events very unrealistic when 2 of 6 Su-33 beake wings every match up against other aircrafts that dont have G limiter even :) Give me a Break!

[GGTharos]

Hi all

 

I have spoken to the team and looked at the track replay's

 

At high speed and with a lot of weight there is a lot of forces working on the wings, especially with any high speed oscillation.

 

thanks

 

 

This seems wrong BIGNEWY, the g-limiter should protect the aircraft in all cases, unless the manual states specifically that some regimes are either not well protected or not protected at all.

When the g-limit is lowered, there's enough buffer to deal with oscillations and other things typically. It definitely seems like something is happening that shouldn't be, and I would hope that, in this case, the team would come back with a more detailed answer. I know YoYo can dig into this in detail, it would be good if he did.

[BlackPixxel]

I’m comfortable with ED’s response only if the the real-world Su-33 manual includes the caution in bright red letters: CAUTION: Maneuvering at high speed is expressly forbidden.

 

With the current state of Flankers and R-27 in DCS there must be a bright red

 

WARNING: DO NOT USE THIS AIRCRAFT IN ACTUAL COMBAT!

 

in the manual.

[Coxy_99]

4 tons and 2x ER is not heavy and ECM pod?

[Falcon_S]

This seems wrong BIGNEWY, the g-limiter should protect the aircraft in all cases,...

 

In Su27 Limiter works perfectly... I can say both Su27/Su33 in some first moment but...

 

Problem in Su33 is only if we trying to control (pitch... bank/roll also in same time) flight path by pull/release on high speed.

 

- In Su33 if we pull max and not jinking then limiter work and we will not exceed G-limits or broke wings.

- but if we after pull max, then release stick - in that moment we are immediately over the limits because limiter stop working and next pull means bye bye wings.

 

In SU27 that is not case. Full releasing stick (backdown) from high G to the 1G is much more gently. In Su33 backdown form high G to 1G is immediately and in same moment we (our limiter) go from MAX G to the low (needle and tone warning). Yes, we got tone warning (short) and needle is on MAX when we releasing stick. Something is wrong in SU-33.

 

Please check and compare charts in attachments and you will see that in Su27 everything works ok but in Su-33 only one pull/release means no wings anymore.

 

In this test is:

SU27

Fuel: 100% 9400t,

Missiles: 2xR73, 2xR-27ET, 4xR-27ER, ECM,

Total weight: 29653kg

 

Su33:

Fuel: 76% 7220t,

Missiles: 2xR73, 2xR-27ET, 4xR-27ER, ECM,

Total weight: 29653kg

 

 

Gents this is a [bUG] and please take look into it deeper please.

Also here is my old 1 year ago post about this https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=206235 and still no love for Su33.

Su27 limiter.trk

Su33 limiter.trk

ACMI Su27 and Su33.rar

Edited November 22, 2019 by Falcon_S

[BIGNEWY]

In Su27 Limiter works perfectly... I can say both Su27/Su33 in some first moment but...

 

Problem in Su33 is only if we trying to control (pitch... bank/roll also in same time) flight path by pull/release on high speed.

 

- In Su33 if we pull max and not jinking then limiter work and we will not exceed G-limits or broke wings.

- but if we after pull max, then release stick - in that moment we are immediately over the limits because limiter stop working and next pull means bye bye wings.

 

In SU27 that is not case. Full releasing stick (backdown) from high G to the 1G is much more gently. In Su33 backdown form high G to 1G is immediately and in same moment we (our limiter) go from MAX G to the low (needle and tone warning). Yes, we got tone warning (short) and needle is on MAX when we releasing stick. Something is wrong in SU-33.

 

Please check and compare charts in attachments and you will see that in Su27 everything works ok but in Su-33 only one pull/release means no wings anymore.

 

In this test is:

SU27

Fuel: 100% 9400t,

Missiles: 2xR73, 2xR-27ET, 4xR-27ER, ECM,

Total weight: 29653kg

 

Su33:

Fuel: 76% 7220t,

Missiles: 2xR73, 2xR-27ET, 4xR-27ER, ECM,

Total weight: 29653kg

 

 

Gents this is a [bUG] and please take look into it deeper please.

Also here is my old 1 year ago post about this https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=206235 and still no love for Su33.

 

Thanks for taking the time to do this,

 

I will show it to the team.

[Falcon_S]

Thanks for taking the time to do this,

 

I will show it to the team.

 

Thanks BIGNEWY... just to add one more thing - critical speed for Su-33 is above 1300km/h.

[BIGNEWY]

I have made a report,

 

the team will check it, once I know more I will pass it on.

 

thanks

 

EDIT: Changed thread to [REPORTED] for now

Edited November 22, 2019 by BIGNEWY

[Ironhand]

I have made a report,

 

the team will check it, once I know more I will pass it on.

 

thanks

 

EDIT: Changed thread to [REPORTED] for now

 

Thank you.

[Teknetinium]

Thank you.

[DarkFire]

It feels almost like the dampener component of the FCS isn't functioning at the moment. Good to hear this will be looked in to :thumbup:

[CaptainX]

Has this been fixed? With the free trials going I noticed that the su-27 doesn't snap its wings like the su-33 that I bought.

[DarkFire]

Has this been fixed? With the free trials going I noticed that the su-27 doesn't snap its wings like the su-33 that I bought.

 

It won't. The AOA/G limiter on the Su-27 is programmed such that it'll save you nearly at any weight and at any speed except when transonic. The limiter on the Su-33 doesn't seem to take account of the increased weight & increased maximum stores weight over the Su-27, hence under some circumstances it can't save you from over-G catastrophic airframe failure.

[Coxy_99]

BUMP has this just disappeared into the abius of the DCSW bug list blackhole any update or is this normal? 

[BBCRF]

On 20.04.2020 at 09:53, DarkFire said:

 

Не будет. Ограничитель AOA / G на Су-27 запрограммирован таким образом, что он спасет вас практически при любом весе и на любой скорости, кроме околозвуковых. Ограничитель на Су-33, похоже, не учитывает увеличенный вес и увеличенный максимальный вес складов по сравнению с Су-27, поэтому при некоторых обстоятельствах он не может спасти вас от катастрофического отказа планера из-за перегрузки.

ОПР на Су-33 лучше чем на Су-27

[BlackPixxel]

Unfortunately the bug is still not fixed.

Here is a video and a track from the current version of DCS.

 

Up until a certain speed the limiter works, but then flying above that speed (appears to be around 1600 km/h) the limiter fails and allows for more and more overload as the speed increases.

 

Watch the overload instrument in the video. At first the limiter does its job, but then the overload starts growing above the structual limit of the aircraft.

 

The issue is not that the wings snap at low overloads, as initially thought, but that the G-limiter allows for higher overloads than the aircraft can handle at higher speeds.

 

 

Su-33_Limiter_Bug.trk

Edited April 8, 2021 by BlackPixxel