NCTR help

[bkthunder]

the ADV- line is bugged, been reported a long time ago.

[fitness88]

Interesting read:

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/information-technology/non-cooperative-target-recognition-information-technology-essay.php

[Blaze1]

Interesting read:

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/information-technology/non-cooperative-target-recognition-information-technology-essay.php

Interesting article. NCTR forms part of the ID matrix which is dependent on specific ROE and from the technical side, also aspect (front quarter for the fan blades and rear quarter for the turbine blades). It may be possible for advanced radars such as AESAs, with very fine range resolution and powerful digital processing, to employ Inverse SAR techniques allowing them to identify targets by their skin/shape signature rather than engines.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Blaze1

[fitness88]

Interesting article. NCTR forms part of the ID matrix with is dependent on specific ROE and from the technical side, also aspect (front quarter for the fan blades and rear quarter for the turbine blades). It may be possible for advanced radars such as AESAs, with very fine range resolution and powerful digital processing, to employ Inverse SAR techniques allowing them to identify targets by their skin/shape signature rather than engines.

 

 

Way beyond my cerebral matrix

[DeathAngel1]

What means NCTR??

[Eaglewings]

What means NCTR??

Non Cooperative Target Recognition.

[backspace340]

What means NCTR??

 

Non Cooperative Target Recognition

[DeathAngel1]

So this mode recognize targets?

[Blaze1]

Way beyond my cerebral matrix

:laugh:

 

The ID matrix is just a list of methods used to help identify airborne contacts, so NCTR, IFF, TGP, AWACS, Visual ID etc. How comprehensive/restrictive that is will depend on the ROE (Rules of Engagement). For NCTR to work, the radar transmissions from the host aircraft must be able to reflect off the engines fan blades (forward sector only for low bypass engines, may be able to get rear sector fan returns from high bypass engines and props) or the turbine blades in the rear, so the aspect of the target plays a large role in the ability to achieve a valid ID.

 

Inverse SAR is basically like a high resolution ground map, but performed in a different manner over a very small area around a moving target.

 

I hope that helps.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Blaze1

[Blaze1]

So this mode recognize targets?

Yes. It compares the radar signature to signatures it has in its library, like a RWR.

[Eaglewings]

So this mode recognize targets?

Yes in reality. And in Wags datalink video though we were unable to see actually works, it is has been implemented. I will try setup a scenerio and see it working myself.

[backspace340]

Yes in reality. And in Wags datalink video though we were unable to see actually works, it is has been implemented. I will try setup a scenerio and see it working myself.

 

It didn't work for Wags because he didn't lock the target - he needed to be in STT for it to work. It might work later on with the soft-locks we'll get later.

[fitness88]

:laugh:

 

The ID matrix is just a list of methods used to help identify airborne contacts, so NCTR, IFF, TGP, AWACS, Visual ID etc. How comprehensive/restrictive that is will depend on the ROE (Rules of Engagement). For NCTR to work, the radar transmissions from the host aircraft must be able to reflect off the engines fan blades (forward sector only for low bypass engines, may be able to get rear sector fan returns from high bypass engines and props) or the turbine blades in the rear, so the aspect of the target plays a large role in the ability to achieve a valid ID.

 

Inverse SAR is basically like a high resolution ground map, but performed in a different manner over a very small area around a moving target.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

Thank you for that explanation, so head on aspect is what you are looking for.

[Blaze1]

Thank you for that explanation, so head on aspect is what you are looking for.

Head-on or tail aspect should work.

[grunf]

Head-on or tail aspect should work.

Head-on does work, tail does not, which I think is how it should be.

[Blaze1]

The specific capabilities of NCTR systems tends to be classified, so it will depend on the system as well as the target. Having said that, identification of rear aspect signatures from turbine blades, high bypass fans and propellers should be possible. This is one of the reasons a lot of effort was put into the design of the nozzle and flameholder section of the PW F135. The flameholder is particularly impressive, because its curved vanes seem to completely conceal the turbine blades.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Blaze1

[Beamscanner]

It's kind of ironic you say that, because I'm actually of the opinion that the Hornet (even in its current, limited state in DCS) displays WAY TOO MUCH information... and yet it doesn't provide the simple info. that I actually want/need. The current radar display has stuff that I never use, and yet it doesn't yet display simple things like numeric range to target, NCTR, etc. I'm coming from the F-15C mostly which kept things clean and simple on the VSD.

 

I get that its different, but -73 Radar Attack page does not display the NCTR print. The SA page, Az/El page and JHMCS will though.

 

From what I understand the Az/El page is used heavily in Air to Air scenarios. That page provides many lines of data on the selected target, including IFF and NCTR info. The Az/El page also provides an easy single button transition to the ATFLIR for visual ID and BDA.

 

Finally, the Az/El page helps a flight of hornets separate where each of their radars is looking to ensure the airspace ahead is completely searched. They can only see their own radar's scan volume, but they can verbally tell their flight where to look. (ie via quadrant or altitude coverage)

 

The F-15 doesn't have as many displays or provide nearly the same amount of info to the pilot. The Hornet has fully integrated sensors, allowing the pilot to use non-traditional displays for target ID/ROE purposes.

 

There is still more data coming to the Radar Attack display, including RWR, Link-16 tracks, Angle-only tracks, IFF print (on top right), two soft locks with LAR symbols, etc. And thats just in RWS..

Edited March 15, 2019 by Beamscanner

[wilbur81]

I get that its different, but -73 Radar Attack page does not display the NCTR print. The SA page, Az/El page and JHMCS will though.

 

From what I understand the Az/El page is used heavily in Air to Air scenarios. That page provides many lines of data on the selected target, including IFF and NCTR info. The Az/El page also provides an easy single button transition to the ATFLIR for visual ID and BDA.

 

Finally, the Az/El page helps a flight of hornets separate where each of their radars is looking to ensure the airspace ahead is completely searched. They can only see their own radar's scan volume, but they can verbally tell their flight where to look. (ie via quadrant or altitude coverage)

 

The F-15 doesn't have as many displays or provide nearly the same amount of info to the pilot. The Hornet has fully integrated sensors, allowing the pilot to use non-traditional displays for target ID/ROE purposes.

 

There is still more data coming to the Radar Attack display, including RWR, Link-16 tracks, Angle-only tracks, IFF print (on top right), two soft locks with LAR symbols, etc. And thats just in RWS..

 

Thanks for the good info! :thumbup:

[wilbur81]

Beamscanner,

 

Frustrated hornet-radar-operator question for you, :-)

 

Here's a scenario I tried after today's latest update in which 7 Hornets (including me) are fighting 12 Migs/Sukois (AI):

1. IFF is 'on'
   
2. Radar is locked on a known bandit.
   
3. Bandit shows up on the HUD in a square.
   
4. I then (with Data Link already 'on') sensor switch over to the SA page and SS depress over the same (HAFU indicated with a star) target.
   
5. Now, I get a diamond in the HUD with HAFU carrot above indicating 'bandit.'
   

 

Is the hornet's IFF interrogation really this ridiculously clunky?

 

Is the APG-73 really completely divorced from the IFF interrogation, so that I have to run two different displays/systems, SS thumbing back and forth between each, in order to get IFF?

 

In short, does the Hornet only IFF (with associated HUD symbology) through use of the SA page and not simply a radar lock?

 

Hopefully I'm doing something wrong and the Hornet isn't really this poor in BVR employment. :-)

Edited March 19, 2019 by wilbur81

[probad]

you can ss depress the brick on radar attack page, its not exclusive to the sa display

[Joker328]

Also it's not as clunky IRL. It just hasn't been fully developed yet.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[wilbur81]

you can ss depress the brick on radar attack page, its not exclusive to the sa display

 

Interesting. I wondered about and tried that and nothing happened...maybe because the SS depress does not seem to lock the brick, thus no data appears, IFF or otherwise, on the HUD or the Radar Attack Page?

[wilbur81]

Does anyone know if, in the real BLK 20 Hornet, the AZ/EL page displays a NCTR print? It seems as of now that you only get the a/c ID on the AZ/EL page if it is already confirmed via some other friendly on Datalink. In other words, if I'm flying alone, with no AWACS or other Link 16 support, my SA page is the only Hornet display that will give me NCTR.