Multiplayer Jester Disable Feature

[Eldur]

The fact that you can't even fathom how jester could be abused means you fundamentally misunderstand how AI works in DCS. IT IS OMNISCIENT. The only reason it "makes a mistake" is because it was programmed to.

 

That just goes for the bold part as well. The DCS AI has been programmed to be omniscient. They see you through objects and terrain still, because it's coded like that. They even see you sneaking up in their blind spots with radars off. HB however went a different approach with JESTER so he isn't. He's not the DCS AI.

[tekrc]

maybe try it before saying its evil ai? you dont know how omniscient it is until actually testing it ourselves. if its still a huge issue then ask for a disable option but you're lumping jester in with default ai which work very differently from each other as far as I can tell. Jester could be way better at being human than you expect but we have to wait and see. no one will be abusing anything until we better know how it works and what exactly he's capable of.

 

dont get me wrong everyone has a preference and thats fine. but judging something and saying its broken before you've even tried it is more than a bit unfair

Edited February 18, 2019 by tekrc

[MobiSev]

so what i take away from this is, no one in this thread wants to RIO so theres no way to tomcat without jester?

interesting logic.

 

I worded my earlier post kind of strange. I was meaning to build off of what the others were saying in the thread about how they dont want to be forced to work with some random person or have to wait for someone to join who wants to RIO.

[shagrat]

if thats the case its amazing

It is already in the videos. He calls out a bogey, wrong and corrects himself.

Then there is the coordinate input demo where he mistypes and corrects. Pretty cool...

The field of view, heads down, and head position has been discussed and commented by Hearblur multiple times already.

[shagrat]

My take away from all this is you like to make assumptions and not actually understand why people at least want the option of not having Jester.

 

It has been covered before that you will have a consent window before allowing a human into your RIO seat.

 

 

The fact that you can't even fathom how jester could be abused means you fundamentally misunderstand how AI works in DCS. IT IS OMNISCIENT. The only reason it "makes a mistake" is because it was programmed to.

That shows how little you even understand the ED AI... since 2.x Trees block the LOS, cockpit layout simulates view obstructions since forever and at night AI requires NVG or FLIR to see you.

The "omniscient" part is where AI wingmen or vehicles in a group communicate with their buddies and the fact, that if you are in a spot where the AI could (!) see you it is a function of time modified by visibility factors... the AI will(!) spot you, it just takes time.

Another "problem" once they spotted you the time to spot your wingmen is drastically reduced and the AI won't lose track of you as long as you stay in range.

That said, this is not how Jester AI by Heatblur works! It is their own invention with the goal to emulate a human RIO as much as possible.

Considering the Arcade omniscient Datalink in the redfor Flaming Cliffs crafts that can't be deactivated, I wouldn't see AI as a major cheat in comparison...

[Eldur]

since 2.x Trees block the LOS, cockpit layout simulates view obstructions since forever and at night AI requires NVG or FLIR to see you.

 

TBH, didn't know that either... must have mixed up something with the sneaking up thing though

 

Thanks for clearing this up

[shagrat]

TBH, didn't know that either... must have mixed up something with the sneaking up thing though

 

Thanks for clearing this up

I do agree, the AI has a lot of issues that could be enhanced, though. But it is by no means omniscient.

Currently even contrast ratio of the airplane pixels against the background modify the spotting algorithms, as does lights, Cross section, fog and available sensors. Maybe Jester AI improvements can be integrated into DCS later somehow. I love the concept of heads down and view direction...

[QuiGon]

Hi guys,

Will there be plans for an option to "ban" jester (in multiplayer)? To make it so if someone wants to fly an F14 on a server, that they must have a player as RIO or have no RIO.

 

Jester is an "AI" and as such will be worse than a human in some respects and better in others. A concern has been brought up by a few people that jester will be abused by people figuring out the very specific situations in which jester gives a superhuman advantage, and using it to "cheat".

 

Multiplayer servers already have problems with people exploiting every small thing that can be pushed outside its intended uses. I think that anyone who plays on mainstream multiplayer servers can at least imagine a scenario in which this could be a problem with Jester.

I'm happy to see this thread, as I've created a thread here back in October to ask almost exactly the same question, although for slightly different reasons: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=223571

For me it's not so much about gameplay balancing, but about having an environment that is pure of AI, where only human skill mattters, regardless if it's being better or worse.

 

Unfortunately I didn't get an answer from Heatblur if it will be possible to disable JESTER on Mp servers. Instead I recieved a lot of ranting by people that, for some reasons that I don't really understand, want to deny other people the ability to host servers where players either have to bring their own human RIO to the fight or won't be able to fly the Tomcat at all. I really don't understand why people feel offended by that feature wish, as no one would be forced to join such a server where Jester is disabled. :dunno:

 

Did you read and understand what Heatblur said already about Jesters "superhuman capabilities"?

I mean the details about viewing angle, obstruction, heads-down and the fact he makes errors? They showed that he needs to operate each and every switch, which caused complaints already, that a "human" would enter coordinates much faster.

I know that Heatblur tries to achieve that but this won't be 100% possible. Especially in adverse weather situations (e.g. fog or snowstorms) it probably won't be possible for Jester to have the exact same spotting capabilities as humans. Same with difficult lighting conditions, because I doubt that when the sun stands low and casts long shadows in mountain valleys that Jesters spotting capabilities will be affected by that, unlike humans.

 

In general, I don't care if you can disable Jester in MP or not, as I rarely fly competitive on public servers, but I agree with others who point out, that an F-14 with a forced human RIO rather poses some trouble in MP.

You will need a squadron with well established Pilot/RIO teams. That would mean not many public servers will rely on these kind of squadrons and for single pilots on an MP server there is no way to fly the Tomcat without a RIO.

I can rather see public servers enforcing Jester AI and blocking human RIOs to enforce a fair fight, than the other way round.

You don't need a squadron to have well established Pilot/RIO teams. I'm not even in a squadron myself. While a squadron is one place to find people to fly with, some people without a squadron just have personal friends who they with. And then there are people who often fly on the same server and have established bounds with other people that also fly on that server regularly, because they often work together there (happens on BlueFlag pretty often).

So, as I said above. I see no problem with hosting a server where Jester is disabled and you will either have to bring your own RIO (a squadron mate, a personal friend, someone you happened to play together with before the Tomcat) or you have to fly a single seat aircraft. Again, no one would be forced to join such a server, so if you want to have Jester then jost join another server.

Edited February 18, 2019 by QuiGon

[chaser]

from my experience you can indeed turn your Rio off in both Multi player and single- you can jump between position in single player , but you can't in multi player. if you have a human Rio in multi player you can't use Jester as well

Your Rio - Jester or Human, will be responsible for the systems of the F14 from simple way point selection through to more complicated systems

Hope that helps?

[FZG_Immel]

Considering the Arcade omniscient Datalink in the redfor Flaming Cliffs crafts that can't be deactivated, I wouldn't see AI as a major cheat in comparison...

 

God I hate that shit with a passion. It ruins all fun in the servers

[Zergburger]

from my experience you can indeed turn your Rio off in both Multi player and single- you can jump between position in single player , but you can't in multi player. if you have a human Rio in multi player you can't use Jester as well

Your Rio - Jester or Human, will be responsible for the systems of the F14 from simple way point selection through to more complicated systems

Hope that helps?

So it is my understanding from your post that people can turn off their own jester for MP but not as a serverwide setting for the server creator?

 

 

I'm happy to see this thread, as I've created a thread here back in October to ask almost exactly the same question, although for slightly different reasons: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=223571

For me it's not so much about gameplay balancing, but about having an environment that is pure of AI, where only human skill mattters, regardless if it's being better or worse.

 

Unfortunately I didn't get an answer from Heatblur if it will be possible to disable JESTER on Mp servers. Instead I recieved a lot of ranting by people that, for some reasons that I don't really understand, want to deny other people the ability to host servers where players either have to bring their own human RIO to the fight or won't be able to fly the Tomcat at all. I really don't understand why people feel offended by that feature wish, as no one would be forced to join such a server where Jester is disabled.

 

 

Sorry to see you had to go through the same closed minded zealotry and flaming when bringing up a proposed optional feature. I have other reasons than balance for this request, and the one you bring up is certainly one of them.

[viper2097]

Is it somehow possible to chat or react with the guy who wants in my backseat before I allow it?

Is there somehow a possibility to report players who would be trolling?

 

I don't expect DCS to be a big trolling community (play csgo if you want some trolling) but however, I won't like to lock my backseat, but I would also like to know who this guy is before I grant him the seat...

Or at least, it would needed to be cleared if we are able to communicate (SRS, language etc...)

[QuiGon]

Is it somehow possible to chat or react with the guy who wants in my backseat before I allow it?

You could always just use the ingame text chat for that if no other means (SRS, TS) are available.

 

Is there somehow a possibility to report players who would be trolling?

That depends on the server as it is up to the server host/admin to punish adverse behaviour.

[chaser]

So it is my understanding from your post that people can turn off their own jester for MP but not as a serverwide setting for the server creator?

 

Cant help on the server wide setting im afraid, but you can turn off your Ai Jester in both single player ( but I dont know why you would want to ) and multi player If you have a human RIO in multiplayer the Ai Jester is redundant

[Cake]

I'm more concerned with how latency and other network limitations might prevent a human RIO from being able to have a realistically smooth experience in a maneuvering aircraft. I think they may have made Jester more human than a human can be in a simulation.

[statrekmike]

People are putting a lot of attention on trolling as a issue and while I have ZERO doubt that it will be a issue, I don't know if it is the larger issue at play when talking about human RIO's on public servers.

 

As elitist as this might sound, I think that when we are talking about a module like the F-14, player competency is going to be a very, very large factor. The player in the pilot's seat is going to be dependent on the player in the RIO's seat in almost every way so having a RIO who never really put a lot of time into learning the radar, the navigation systems, or even how to properly keep a eye out for enemy aircraft is going to be crippling at best and incredibly frustrating at the worst.

 

For some players, this is not going to be a big issue. Some are going to have buddies that they can fly with and reliably count on. This is a nice ideal situation but it is not one that is always feasible at any given time. Those who have a buddy that they trust may want to play on servers when their buddy is not available and in that case, it may be better for them to use Jester rather than hoping and praying that the random RIO they let in the cockpit has actually learned how to do what they NEED to know how to do.

[Quadg]

People are putting a lot of attention on trolling as a issue and while I have ZERO doubt that it will be a issue, I don't know if it is the larger issue at play when talking about human RIO's on public servers.

 

As elitist as this might sound, I think that when we are talking about a module like the F-14, player competency is going to be a very, very large factor. The player in the pilot's seat is going to be dependent on the player in the RIO's seat in almost every way so having a RIO who never really put a lot of time into learning the radar, the navigation systems, or even how to properly keep a eye out for enemy aircraft is going to be crippling at best and incredibly frustrating at the worst.

 

For some players, this is not going to be a big issue. Some are going to have buddies that they can fly with and reliably count on. This is a nice ideal situation but it is not one that is always feasible at any given time. Those who have a buddy that they trust may want to play on servers when their buddy is not available and in that case, it may be better for them to use Jester rather than hoping and praying that the random RIO they let in the cockpit has actually learned how to do what they NEED to know how to do.

 

agreed..

 

human RIO are going to be 600kg of dead weight on the airframe.. especially early in the launch..

 

two seat aircraft are supposed to have greater awareness than single seat aircraft..

they are also less manoeuvrable because of the weight.

 

so its a win lose situation already without having an idiot/no RIO :)

[Eldur]

I'm more concerned with how latency and other network limitations might prevent a human RIO from being able to have a realistically smooth experience in a maneuvering aircraft. I think they may have made Jester more human than a human can be in a simulation.

 

That will probably be the biggest problem for Germans since the internet literally is new lands for them still

[probad]

if he wants to run a server with no jester option that's his prerogative isnt it?

 

whatever happened to you guys' "more options is better" argument lmao

[Eldur]

Wondering about the whole discussion... it would be an option after all. And if you don't like it, don't join that server if it's on there.

[tekrc]

I have no issues with people with wanting the option. though when said reasons just dont make sense or based on false information then theres a need to correct that so future readers do not start believing the bad information. not saying dont have the option but at least dont spread misinformation.

Edited February 20, 2019 by tekrc

[QuiGon]

People are putting a lot of attention on trolling as a issue and while I have ZERO doubt that it will be a issue, I don't know if it is the larger issue at play when talking about human RIO's on public servers.

 

As elitist as this might sound, I think that when we are talking about a module like the F-14, player competency is going to be a very, very large factor. The player in the pilot's seat is going to be dependent on the player in the RIO's seat in almost every way so having a RIO who never really put a lot of time into learning the radar, the navigation systems, or even how to properly keep a eye out for enemy aircraft is going to be crippling at best and incredibly frustrating at the worst.

 

For some players, this is not going to be a big issue. Some are going to have buddies that they can fly with and reliably count on. This is a nice ideal situation but it is not one that is always feasible at any given time. Those who have a buddy that they trust may want to play on servers when their buddy is not available and in that case, it may be better for them to use Jester rather than hoping and praying that the random RIO they let in the cockpit has actually learned how to do what they NEED to know how to do.

If my RIO buddy isn't available, I won't fly the Tomcat and instead hop in another aircraft. Simple.

 

Now if I absolutly want to fly the Tomcat I would hop on another server that allows the use of Jester. You also don't join a server that runs a mission wthout Tomcats if you want to fly the Tomcat. So if you want to fly wit Jester, you don't join a server that has Jester disabled. Simple.

Edited February 21, 2019 by QuiGon

[Banzaiib]

If my RIO buddy isn't available, I won't fly the Tomcat and hop in another aircraft instead. Simple.

 

Now if I absolutly want to fly the Tomcat I would hop on another server that allows the use of Jester. You also don't join a server that runs a mission wthout Tomcats if you want to fly the Tomcat. So if you want to fly wit Jester, you don't join a server that has Jester disabled. Simple.

 

this /thread

[Shadow_1stVFW]

If my RIO buddy isn't available, I won't fly the Tomcat and instead hop in another aircraft. Simple.

 

Now if I absolutly want to fly the Tomcat I would hop on another server that allows the use of Jester. You also don't join a server that runs a mission wthout Tomcats if you want to fly the Tomcat. So if you want to fly wit Jester, you don't join a server that has Jester disabled. Simple.

That works in theory

 

Until a popular multiplayer server (blue flag, DDCS, GAW) takes away an option a particular player was happy with.

 

Then the porch forms come out

 

Each coalations Aircraft in BF

Active missiles in BF

Supply in GAW

Dropping players with high ping

 

No one is every happy

 

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[QuiGon]

That works in theory

 

Until a popular multiplayer server (blue flag, DDCS, GAW) takes away an option a particular player was happy with.

You can't make everyone happy, but the big servers want to stay popular, so they won't do something that isn't popular and would cost them a lot of players.