DCS Korea Theater

[impreza]

I think every simulators need this map

[C3PO]

On 1/28/2020 at 11:03 PM, Baco said:

I believe the Limit is RAM, and alocation space. The more Objects, altitudes, roads, etc the more ram you need to have and alocate (move), the more ram, the les FPS, becuase of more load on the core, the bus etc... So of course the area of the map is not the limit, it is what is inisde the are that makes a map feasble or not. one with lots of stuff wil kil the PC we run DCS on... so it is not posible.

 

Specialy Not with DCS polici of making everything very detailed and realistic And accurate. Meaning landmarks, and recognizable features, special objects, ect...

Implement a "bubble" system for objects.

[Harlikwin]

On 11/6/2020 at 4:22 AM, Duckman said:

 

Maybe slap some Turkish and Soviet skins on the aircraft and call it Flaming Cliffs 1955?

 

Seriously, a Korean map seems like a no brainer given all the possiblities but I guess there are technical and economic issues as usual.

 

The other technical issue that everyone also wants to ignore are twofold.

 

1. Its 2 or 3 diffferent maps, 1950's, 1980's and modern are ALL gonna look entirely different.

2. Level of detail is like 1000X higher than any other map due to population density, hell, just Seoul would be a 128gb map.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Ravenus]

I would just go for a 70s/80s map in Korea. Seoul not being the megametropolis that it is today, but just about believable for a modern setting. Also catering for the 1950s scenario in Korea. It is a shame the Korea scenario hasn´t been worked on. It has barely been touched in sims and it has huge potential for fun factor and amazing scenarios/fights.

[m005106]

+1 on a Korea map.

 

Having served in the ROK Navy for 20+ years, I can assure you that the Korea Theater of Operations can be one of the most dynamic there is. Numerous OPLANs for contingencies and all out war are in place, and although they are all secret, many of them are easy to deduce, and more than vaguely available to the public.

Wartime US augmentation through time phased force deployment data, which is also confidential but more than vaguely available, will contribute greatly to the dynamic campaign's realism.

The geographical position of the Korean peninsula is also an attractive one. Right smack in the middle of the US-ROK-JPN vs RUS-PRC-DPRK power struggle.

 

Oh and don't forget. The Korean War is not over yet, it is on hold through the armistice agreement, hence our ROE name : armistice rules of engagement.

 

Please make this happen

[CallsignLord]

+1

[Chinaski]

While Mig 17 , Mig 23 and MIG 29  are planned, we definitly need this map! It perfectly fit the entire cold war and modern era.

 

 

[Taz1004]

What era?

[Dragon89]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:34 PM, m005106 said:

The geographical position of the Korean peninsula is also an attractive one. Right smack in the middle of the US-ROK-JPN vs RUS-PRC-DPRK power struggle.

Bingo! Another excellent point for a Korea Theater map.

[GPatricks]

On 5/16/2021 at 9:12 AM, Taz1004 said:

What era?

 Sabres were sent to Korea in late 1950 to answer the threat presented by the arrival of Soviet-built MiG-15, so 1950-1952 sounds like a reasonable start!

[Tank50us]

I'd like a Korean map, but at the same time, given the powers in play, I can see why teams want to avoid it.

For starters, China likely still has a hand in training KPAF pilots, and them getting a hand on the map could help them potentially train those pilots in a very realistic scenario (remember, cities change, mountains don't), and since many of the airfields that were built in the late 50s and early 60s are all still there and fully operational, they could learn how to penetrate the US/ROK radar net and hit those airfields without much warning. So some liberties may have to be taken to avoid this.

Second, the scope of the map itself would mean involving parts of China and Japan for proper simulation. Even in a Korean War setting, Sabers flew mostly from Japan until the lines stabilized, at which point some units were moved closer to the front. The advantage to this however is that if gives multiple, and very clear Red vs Blue scenarios if you take things into fiction land.

 

The final thing to consider, and this is mostly conjecture, is that including such a map would instantly make such a map impossible to sell in the ROK, they have a bit of a stick up their backsides about such things for some reason (They outright banned a couple films and games because of that very scenario)

 

But still, the options are there, and I'd like to see what a talented team could cook up.

[GPatricks]

To your points, do you really think Chinese intelligence/Armed forces don't have a (to the sq. ft. if not inch) detailed satellite map of all of South Korea already and they would jump on a DCS game map to train?? I would be happy with a limited map within the boundaries of DCS capability, if that meant forgoing Japan so be it. I've been flying over Korea in the "other" sim for +/- 23 years now. As for the final point, is BMS Falcon outlawed in South Korea?

[Tank50us]

6 hours ago, GaryR said:

To your points, do you really think Chinese intelligence/Armed forces don't have a (to the sq. ft. if not inch) detailed satellite map of all of South Korea already and they would jump on a DCS game map to train?? I would be happy with a limited map within the boundaries of DCS capability, if that meant forgoing Japan so be it. I've been flying over Korea in the "other" sim for +/- 23 years now. As for the final point, is BMS Falcon outlawed in South Korea?

 

I said these were concerns, and it is admittedly speculation at this point (we know that some Air Forces use DCS for training pilots after all), but beyond that there's nothing fully concrete.

The second part, I'm not sure if it is or not. I know that "Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction", "Homefront", "Ghost Recon 2" and "Die Another Day" were outlawed in the ROK (even if only temporarily), and I think "The Interview" was as well (could be mistaken), and the reason for it was because they each dealt with the subject of the ROK and DPRK being in a hot war again. I think the few films that depict such a possibility that aren't frowned upon are those films and games actually made by ROK based studios, and have special permission to be made.

[Harlikwin]

19 hours ago, Tank50us said:

I'd like a Korean map, but at the same time, given the powers in play, I can see why teams want to avoid it.

For starters, China likely still has a hand in training KPAF pilots, and them getting a hand on the map could help them potentially train those pilots in a very realistic scenario (remember, cities change, mountains don't), and since many of the airfields that were built in the late 50s and early 60s are all still there and fully operational, they could learn how to penetrate the US/ROK radar net and hit those airfields without much warning. So some liberties may have to be taken to avoid this.

Second, the scope of the map itself would mean involving parts of China and Japan for proper simulation. Even in a Korean War setting, Sabers flew mostly from Japan until the lines stabilized, at which point some units were moved closer to the front. The advantage to this however is that if gives multiple, and very clear Red vs Blue scenarios if you take things into fiction land.

 

The final thing to consider, and this is mostly conjecture, is that including such a map would instantly make such a map impossible to sell in the ROK, they have a bit of a stick up their backsides about such things for some reason (They outright banned a couple films and games because of that very scenario)

 

But still, the options are there, and I'd like to see what a talented team could cook up.

 

LOL, I mean forever optimisitc there, maybe in 2050 when DCS can run a map that detailed and of that size.

[Tank50us]

Just now, Harlikwin said:

 

LOL, I mean forever optimisitc there, maybe in 2050 when DCS can run a map that detailed and of that size.

 

Actually we have two. One is out now (Persian Gulf, although it needs work), and the second is the upcoming South Atlantic map. If you can, I suggest listening to the interview that Air Combat Sim did with Razbam on that, you'd get a unique insight to how the maps in DCS are actually made (link: https://redcircle.com/shows/air-combat-sim )

 

So, in short, it is possible for a map to be made, it would just require a lot of work on the part of the people making it to get a decent map up and running for the region.... and maybe ED to recreate all the smog coming from China, but that's another topic

[Harlikwin]

11 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

 

Actually we have two. One is out now (Persian Gulf, although it needs work), and the second is the upcoming South Atlantic map. If you can, I suggest listening to the interview that Air Combat Sim did with Razbam on that, you'd get a unique insight to how the maps in DCS are actually made (link: https://redcircle.com/shows/air-combat-sim )

 

So, in short, it is possible for a map to be made, it would just require a lot of work on the part of the people making it to get a decent map up and running for the region.... and maybe ED to recreate all the smog coming from China, but that's another topic

 

I mean the population densities=object densities on the maps we have is the problem not the physical size. Go fly over damascus in VR and report back how performance is. Then imagine that 50% of your map or more is gonna be that or worse. Most of the Syria map is empty. Most of the PG map is empty. And ocean aside, none of this map is empty. Plus per that link, you are literally building every frikin building. And you have at least 4 different architecture styles between those countries. Thousands of objects minimally.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Tank50us]

3 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

I mean the population densities on the maps we have is the problem not the physical size. Go fly over damascus in VR and report back how performance is. Then imagine that 50% of your map or more is gonna be that or worse. Most of the Syria map is empty. Most of the PG map is empty. And ocean aside, none of this map is empty. 

 

As someone else pointed out, that depends on when the map is actually set. If we're talking about the late 70s to early 80s then the actual density wouldn't be as much of an issue, but the cities would still appear to be fairly modern.

[GPatricks]

1952, very few cities and bunches of villages with ack-ack, mostly jungle and hills.

 

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, GaryR said:

1952, very few cities and bunches of villages with ack-ack, mostly jungle and hills.

 

 

And where are you gonna get detailed enough maps of that, or photos? I mean I 100% get why we get only modern maps, because they are the only ones that can really be done with the tools they have. There is no OSM data for 1950's or 1970's korea. 

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

 

As someone else pointed out, that depends on when the map is actually set. If we're talking about the late 70s to early 80s then the actual density wouldn't be as much of an issue, but the cities would still appear to be fairly modern.

 

Yeah, but you don't have the data to make those maps. Listen to how its in that razbam podcast. I have a ton more respect for the map makers if they have to do it like that. 

 

At best you might find some basic paper maps, from those eras, but you're mostly just gonna make stuff up, and thats ALOT of stuff to make up. And thats just to have a "template" to put 3d buildings and stuff on. 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Gunnar81]

3 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

I mean the population densities=object densities on the maps we have is the problem not the physical size. Go fly over damascus in VR and report back how performance is. Then imagine that 50% of your map or more is gonna be that or worse. Most of the Syria map is empty. Most of the PG map is empty. And ocean aside, none of this map is empty. Plus per that link, you are literally building every frikin building. And you have at least 4 different architecture styles between those countries. Thousands of objects minimally.

 

 

This is a good point, im thinking about the old Falcon 4.0 Korea map and with all of that urban build up properly modelled in DCS you'd have gaming rigs spontaneously combusting across the world. I know all I'd be left with is a molten pile of goo on my desk lol

[Harlikwin]

6 minutes ago, Gunnar81 said:

This is a good point, im thinking about the old Falcon 4.0 Korea map and with all of that urban build up properly modelled in DCS you'd have gaming rigs spontaneously combusting across the world. I know all I'd be left with is a molten pile of goo on my desk lol

 

I mean to be fair Ugra did/does an amazing job with that map, but outside of a few big cities there is desert, hills not much. Korea/Japan/China you have postage stamp sized areas that are parks relatively speaking. Even outside Seoul you have tons of small towns, villages, infrastructure, its like 100% land utilized.