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TrackIR or VR? why?


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Sorry that is just not accurate.

While VR enthusiasts may enjoy tweaking and tuning to get the best for what they want to see from their rig and VR device, it really is plug and play. At least the mainstream devices like Rift and Vive.

There are just hundreds of posts here about all the difficulties people have with VR.

TrackIR and VR just aren’t anything alike one another in that regard.

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Ok giant text wall about “problems” whatever... :music_whistling:

 

"Wall of text" I.e. "I can't read a few paragraphs but im going to respond to it anyway".. good argument about your entry barrier into VR. Look man I could care less if you use VR or not. Really. YOu do you. There are plenty of posts in this thread from people who have used both trackIR and VR that shine VR in a positive light. My experience with it is nowhere near as complicated as your description of it. It has flaws.. but it's awesome. If that's too much for anyone.. trackIR is a must have imo. Need those extra buttons on the hat switch. Can't put it more simply than that. And I've been around computers since I was 3 years old, I've had to budget and other time's I've been more fortunate. It's the way of life. This stuff is all second nature to me and I'll confess that.. but VR setup is less complicated than installing windows, system and gpu drivers.

 

There are just hundreds of posts here about all the difficulties people have with VR.

TrackIR and VR just aren’t anything alike one another in that regard.

 

There are thousands of posts here about all the difficulties people have with DCS in general..regardless of on a monitor or VR. Point? Straw argument.

 

 

(not digging every single trackIR issue post i can find..but this took about 2 minutes of effort, despite there never having been a trackir specific section of the forums ever like there has been for VR from day one..)

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=453

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=159874

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=229871

 

https://forums.naturalpoint.com/viewforum.php?f=60

 

Just glancing at the natural point forums, the first page of the TrackIR5 thread we immediately encounter people who find trackIR not so simple. There are people who have much to learn about personal computers on forums world wide. Keep in mind.. there's no telling how many of said issues are caused by improper PC maintenance to begin with, rather than TrackIR itself. Same could be said for VR.

 

In the long run.. no hard feelings.

 

*Edit* leaving it at this post one way or another -

 

But within the topic here you can’t possibly say TrackIR is as difficult to deal with as VR. The game engine itself struggles a lot with VR and that’s a big part of the problem. TrackIR doesn’t struggle to work.

 

All hardware, and all software has potential for error.

 

I've had plenty of issues with TrackIR like light or reflections causing it to be twitchy, or having to adjust curves because I changed the position of the camera.. or having to speed up curves because at the distance the camera is at, my head is turning to a point where the led clip is blocked. Yaw and roll curves being too sensitive. I spent much more time tweaking settings for trackir than I ever have VR thorugh the course of various windows installations and reorganizations of my desk.

 

I did experience microstutters that were probably related to trackIR, where a solution for such has been found by the playerbase of locking FPS to no more or no less than 60FPS. As mentioned previously, in another sim it caused stuttering when using force feedback.

 

Nothing I've ever really complained about but all I've ever done with my WMR headset is plug it in, which windows automatically installs drivers. Install SteamVR, install WMR for steam. edit a cfg file. Set SS slider to 100% and set P.D. to maintain a minimum of 45fps in DCS. Takes 5 minutes if you know where to look. That's a one time thing unless steamVR or wmr software gets an update. The rift and Vive are even easier to setup, aside from the physical aspect of placing the tracking sensors.

 

But I'm not knocking anyone for using trackir. It's extremely useful if you don't have VR or some kind of alternative. Again, another product where the pros outweigh the cons. The value of those pros and cons are highly subjective.

 

Give VR 17 years and then we will see. Maybe it will take off maybe it won’t.

 

TrackIR never really took off outside of the simming world. And it probably took years to convince the majority of simmers to start using it, because it would have been one of the most expensive peripherals for their PC. You said you bought yours in 2010. If there were no "early adopters", or perhaps you'd call them "TrackIR enthusiasts" that opportunity might not have been there for you. Just because you bought one doesn't make it a trending market. VR is best suited for the Sim market, but is not limited to that.

 

Like I said...this same argument in one form or another happens with every new piece of PC technology that is released. Nah.. we don't need a monster voodoo.. nah we don't need a widescreen.. nah we don't need multi-core cpus... nah we don't need trackir, Soon after quad cores are a bare minimum, 16:9 is a standard, less than 1gb of vram is sacrilege. Now we're at "nah we don't need VR" and there're probably not many simmers who haven't experienced either trackir or VR at this point. All the power to the people who want to wait it out.

 

All the power to the people who want to see what they've been missing out on. I personally am on no campaign to stop people from endorsing technology that's going to take PC gaming into the future. That is how the way is paved. The more that do, the more developers sell games for it. It used to be that devs would jump on new tech and turn it into something magical. Now it relies more on the people willing to spend some dough and pray developers don't give it minimal effort. Thankfully, DCS World seems as much a project of passion as it is a method of earning a living for ED, a company that I would be willing to bet had a large impact on total TIR units sold, and in very recent posts by the Eagle Dynamics team, they are poised to do the same for VR. At least that's my opinion.

 

Why would TrackIR be used outside sim style games? That’s literally what it’s made for. NaturalPoint makes several other optical tracking devices used outside of gaming.

 

TrackIR is not virtual reality. That could be both a negative and positive statement. So comparing the two really isn’t valid. The issues faced by VR establishing itself in gaming are not the same things facing TrackIR.

 

I'm pretty sure the title of the thread invites the comparison of the two. Man do I also need to grab old forum posts outside of DCS World from people who already had the TrackIR hardware asking for support in various games before current gen VR ever existed? I know of at least two titles I've personally asked for implementation of TrackIR support.. one of which was listened to.. the VR experience is more fun in that title as well. Imagination can be used for positives, if you have one. Technology is driven by it.

 

And does it really matter if VR wasn't specifically designed for DCS World or simming if that's where people take a liking to it and it drives some business to a headset manufacturer's way as well as the potential for driving some VR customers towards DCS World? And what does it matter that they aren't the same thing, when one replaces the need for the other, while offering the perspective of being inside a virtual aircraft instead of behind a monitor, and doing a better job of headtracking? What does it matter when the developers of DCS World themselves are saying "Hey..this is cool we're going to do this"

 

And I don't think it's unfair to compare the rise of TrackIR from it's time of inception to VR in it's current state being less than 3 years old. If we had this kind of technology at that point in time I'd put my money on VR being more popular than TrackIR is today in simming. The point being.. TrackIR had it's naysayers just like you. Now it's a "Don't strap in without it" item in this community, except to those of us who are enjoying ourselves in VR. And I see more and more people picking up VR headsets in these forums and in my personal group of friends who like to sim. I doubt I'd be very far off in saying TrackIR got its start pretty much just like this. And there were naysayers.. that claimed it would fail. Personally, rather than take the word of forum members, of which we don't know their level of competence in personal computing, take a stab at it yourself. The artifacting from motion reprojection MAY be too much of an issue for you. The lack of sharpness you're used to with your monitor MAY be too much for you, and nobody would fault you for returning an item you don't enjoy. (be sure and take the time to read the fine print on the return policy from the retailer you might purchase from) But words won't tell you that.. if they could I'd have bought a rift day one when sims started utilizing them. Instead I waited 2 years. Although. I do enjoy the increased pixel count of the Odyssey.

 

Did words prepare you for TrackIR? I know my mind was blown when I used it the first time, despite youtube videos and information gathered from forums.

 

The general consensus of a good 99% of the people I've encountered who are both computer literate and wearing a VR headset within their budget and simming is "We get used to it.. because I haven't flown without it since I got it." And the best part about it is - it only gets better from here. And even some of the not so computer literate people I've been able to get setup within 10-20 minutes on Discord just by telling them what settings to adjust.

 

 

I mean.. in upgrading the vulkan api do you not think they're going to do further optimization for VR in the sim?

 

Are you afraid you're going to lose trackIR support or something?

 

If your intent is to make me say "You're right I don't like my VR headset".. sorry for ya. I gave my trackIR unit to a family member within a week of getting my headset and I don't regret it one bit. Lean back..take a look at the overwhelmingly positive responses for VR in this thread.. and maybe ask yourself why you feel this need for an overwhelming total number of posts disputing hands on experience with speculation? I mean.. i'm a little bashful.. I shared my opinion pages ago. It hasn't changed.. what are we doing here?

 

I think we started with a conversation about framerates and their perceived effects from headset to monitor. Having had actual experience with that 45 fps framerate myself in a VR headset in DCS World, it seems it is far from the worst gaming experience in the world. To many of us..it's the best experience we can get in DCS World for the time being. And at least for me personally, anyone's welcome to disagree with me. But it won't change the fact that I am enjoying my VR headset. And as much as you want to think that judgement is clouded somehow, I'm very much not alone. Then you've got guys like Bitmaster, who has proclaimed in other threads he can't handle long periods of VR and therefore doesn't like it. But.. not for reasons of "setup time".. talking physical nausua/headaches.. i've experienced it myself without motion reprojection but for the most part i can spend hours in the headset and be fine. i mean..he's a tech savvy guy. Us VR users seem to be okay with his choice, as much as I am with your choice to stick with TrackIR as well for whatever reason.

 

I'm done beating a dead horse. You have a nice night and enjoy your flights. TrackIR or VR.. however you want to do it. Hope we can still have fun if we cross each other in the skies.


Edited by Headwarp

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"Between 2002 and 2005, five different TrackIR camera models were released with steadily improving specifications." <- wiki quote

Right. That’s what I mean by “mature technology” it’s fairly well developed. Perhaps to the point where any further improvements aren’t necessary. It does what it does. I’ve had TiR5 since 2010 and there hasn’t been a TrackIR 6.

VR is in a very early stage of development. For me personally it’s a stage not worth getting into at this point. Give VR 17 years and then we will see. Maybe it will take off maybe it won’t.

 

There are thousands of posts here about all the difficulties people have with DCS in general..

But within the topic here you can’t possibly say TrackIR is as difficult to deal with as VR. The game engine itself struggles a lot with VR and that’s a big part of the problem. TrackIR doesn’t struggle to work.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Right. That’s what I mean by “mature technology” it’s fairly well developed. Perhaps to the point where any further improvements aren’t necessary. It does what it does. I’ve had TiR5 since 2010 and there hasn’t been a TrackIR 6.

VR is in a very early stage of development. For me personally it’s a stage not worth getting into at this point. Give VR 17 years and then we will see. Maybe it will take off maybe it won’t.

 

 

But within the topic here you can’t possibly say TrackIR is as difficult to deal with as VR. The game engine itself struggles a lot with VR and that’s a big part of the problem. TrackIR doesn’t struggle to work.

 

Then why do you worry so dang much about it ?

VR is NOT currently for everyone. Obviously it is not for you. That is cool. You have made that abundantly clear to the point of spending more time disparaging VR and those that are enjoying it. What is your obsession with this? Does the many of us that are enjoying VR gaming with DCS somehow reduce your pleasure of gaming on a monitor? Certainly all those that prefer gaming on a monitor rather than VR does not affect my pleasure of VR.

 

Your are arguing about getting performance in the display for VR, not in the Track IR. Two things are being compared, monitor and track IR versus VR Headset. Yes VR does both, display and head tracking. Track IR displays nothing. I would not go back to monitor gaming with a Track IR for anything. I have only gamed with the Rift since getting it. And that is cool for me. And I certainly would not begrudge anyone that feels the same about monitor and Track IR, nor would I disparage it.

 

It is great to have choices!


Edited by dburne

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I would mention that i'm spending at least 5x the time in DCS VR , as i did with a monitor and TiR . Not sure the wife would agree :) , but i think that's a good thing .

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I would mention that i'm spending at least 5x the time in DCS VR , as i did with a monitor and TiR . Not sure the wife would agree :) , but i think that's a good thing .

 

LOL mine would say the same thing for sure.

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I barely used DCS A-10C or DCS World when I had just a monitor and TrackIR. I used it only a little bit more when I got a 24" touchscreen and put the Helios panel on it. Ever since I got my Rift, I've been using DCS World every weekend when its not my turn in the on-call AOG rotation at work. Its just a lot more fun in VR. So much so that I'm actually using all of the weapons on the A-10C with a high degree of skill and precision. The Rift was so easy to set up, I was actually in disbelief, because I had become accustomed to pretty much burning an entire afternoon every time I added a new peripheral. With the Rift, I was up and running in 5 minutes, and didn't have to worry about what lights I had turned on in my apartment. Just the experience of actually feeling like I'm in the aircraft has led me to purchase lots of additional aircraft modules. Something I wouldn't have even considered before VR.

 

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TrackIR never really took off outside of the simming world.

Why would TrackIR be used outside sim style games? That’s literally what it’s made for. NaturalPoint makes several other optical tracking devices used outside of gaming.

 

TrackIR is not virtual reality. That could be both a negative and positive statement. So comparing the two really isn’t valid. The issues faced by VR establishing itself in gaming are not the same things facing TrackIR.

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--snippage--

 

TrackIR doesn’t struggle to work.

 

True. But you have to train your brain to make it work. Because it's not natural for us to compute looking one way, while turning the head a different way. It's also why a real FA18 pilot like Mover had such problems with it and decided that panning with HOTAS was simpler. With VR? He and Gonky were able to fly in formation, drop bombs, dogfight etc. To quote him "holy sh!t this feels real" No one has ever said that about TrackIR.

 

Therein lies the difference of the two technology. One is not natural, and the other is.

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True. But you have to train your brain to make it work. Because it's not natural for us to compute looking one way, while turning the head a different way. It's also why a real FA18 pilot like Mover had such problems with it and decided that panning with HOTAS was simpler. With VR? He and Gonky were able to fly in formation, drop bombs, dogfight etc. To quote him "holy sh!t this feels real" No one has ever said that about TrackIR.

 

Therein lies the difference of the two technology. One is not natural, and the other is.

Let me rephrase that. The game doesn’t struggle to work with TrackIR, it doesn’t require the game to run in 3D

 

As far as training your brain to work with TrackIR. That’s a stretch. It’s possibly easiest most intuitive controller you can use.

As far as VR feeling natural. It’s not. Because your vision is moving and your body is not. That’s a recipie for some pretty severe sickness. As good as VR tech gets it won’t surmount that. Yes some are immune to it but many aren’t. That reason is why VR died the first time around.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Let me rephrase that. The game doesn’t struggle to work with TrackIR, it doesn’t require the game to run in 3D

 

As far as training your brain to work with TrackIR. That’s a stretch. It’s possibly easiest most intuitive controller you can use.

As far as VR feeling natural. It’s not. Because your vision is moving and your body is not. That’s a recipie for some pretty severe sickness. As good as VR tech gets it won’t surmount that. Yes some are immune to it but many aren’t. That reason is why VR died the first time around.

 

But it wasn't me that had a problem. It was a real FA18 aviator who couldn't deal with TrackIR at all. So much so that he thought panning with his finger was better. But had no issues with VR. That's the point I was making.

 

Anyway, I think we beat this horse to a pulp and shredded it.

 

Enjoy your DCS!

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Let me rephrase that. The game doesn’t struggle to work with TrackIR, it doesn’t require the game to run in 3D

 

As far as training your brain to work with TrackIR. That’s a stretch. It’s possibly easiest most intuitive controller you can use.

As far as VR feeling natural. It’s not. Because your vision is moving and your body is not. That’s a recipie for some pretty severe sickness. As good as VR tech gets it won’t surmount that. Yes some are immune to it but many aren’t. That reason is why VR died the first time around.

 

Are you speaking from experience or conjecture? IIRC you have not even tried DCS in VR.

 

VR is the most natural feeling regarding movement I have ever seen. Way more intuitive than a Track IR, and yes I have used both for more hours than I care to think about. Put the hands in there and it is truly incredible. But then it is 1:1 movement, no owl head swivel on a stick moves LOL.

 

All these hours spent flying combat, one would think I would get pretty sick. Nope...

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As it relates to this forum, who gives a crap about Oculus Go, PS4 VR? Vive is the only thing that's relevant except that it's the most overly priced old tech in the VR world. I'd like to have seen Rift, Odyssey+ numbers. And the $4M kickstarter for Pimax is another reference point.

 

But this is why I disagreed with you that VR will be in the household. It never will be.

 

It's a niche dream come true for niche sim players. It's not meant for gamers. It's not meant for causal players. It's not meant for competitive "must win at all cost with bionic eyes & TrackIR necks" online players. So it'll never be a consumer success. It's meant for people who enjoy simulation and have the wherewithal to invest in the tech.

 

Hell, Nintendo's Pokemon Go (augment reality) probably outsold every HMD made to date.

 

and they are such a sad bunch, truly pathetic really. DCS on a flat screen is like playing with a cup 'n' ball compared to VR.

 

cup__ball_mid.jpg

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But it wasn't me that had a problem. It was a real FA18 aviator who couldn't deal with TrackIR at all. So much so that he thought panning with his finger was better. But had no issues with VR. That's the point I was making.

I have no doubt that a real pilot would find it awkward to fly a plane by looking at a PC screen and clicking on it. Just like driving a car in a PC racing sim is very much less like driving my own car. But the biggest difference isn’t in the wraparound stereoscopic 3D view, it’s the fact that I can’t feel the car. The “view” part of VR certainly feels very real. I’ve used an Oculus in my work actually so I’ve worn one.

 

and they are such a sad bunch, truly pathetic really. DCS on a flat screen is like playing with a cup 'n' ball compared to VR.

And yet the quote above cedes the fact that it’s more “competitive” :music_whistling:

 

IIRC you have not even tried DCS in VR.

 

VR is the most natural feeling regarding movement I have ever seen.

No I haven’t used it with DCS, I use it in Architectural design. I agree about how natural it feels, that part is pretty amazing. But the other issues really discourage me from using for gaming. One day I’ll steal it from the office and try it out :smilewink:


Edited by SharpeXB

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True. But you have to train your brain to make it work. Because it's not natural for us to compute looking one way, while turning the head a different way. It's also why a real FA18 pilot like Mover had such problems with it and decided that panning with HOTAS was simpler. With VR? He and Gonky were able to fly in formation, drop bombs, dogfight etc. To quote him "holy sh!t this feels real" No one has ever said that about TrackIR.

 

 

I watched that video of Mover and his buddy flying and it was completely conclusive proof that VR is quite natural and the only thing miss was the gforce and graphic fidelity.

 

Now, shall we list the things missing in TiR?

 

1. feeling

2. Flat

3. Not to scale

4. Not 1:1 tracking

5. Lacks immersion

6. Allows cheating with rubber neck

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I do hope VR is here to stay for flight sims. After flight simming since the early 90s VR has been the biggest immersion breakthrough I have experienced in all that time in my opinion.

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I watched that video of Mover and his buddy flying and it was completely conclusive proof that VR is quite natural and the only thing miss was the gforce and graphic fidelity.

 

Now, shall we list the things missing in TiR?

 

1. feeling

2. Flat

3. Not to scale

4. Not 1:1 tracking

5. Lacks immersion

6. Allows cheating with rubber neck

 

I wouldn't exactly call it cheating. You can turn your head pretty far with a hatswitch or mouse as well lol.

 

The lack of owl neck with VR can likely be overcome by a swivel chair too >.< I'm just in a fixed racing seat myself.

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Now, shall we list the things missing in TiR?

 

1. feeling

2. Flat

3. Not to scale

4. Not 1:1 tracking

5. Lacks immersion

6. Allows cheating with rubber neck

I’ll accept those in exchange for ultra level graphics, a top frame rate and high resolution. When VR can deliver those, let me know...

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The lack of owl neck with VR can likely be overcome by a swivel chair too >.< I'm just in a fixed racing seat myself.

 

I'm pretty much hemmed in by my HOTAS setup, so the restrictions to movement are about as real as it gets for VR. I just lack a glareshield and canopy rails to grab when I'm REALLY straining to get my eyes on something. :D

 

As far as the comments on motion sickness go, that possibility comes up with the lack of external visual cues in VR, which is also what tricks the brain into a sense of motion. But, all of those biological "gyros" are contained in your skull, so as long as you don't lose tracking, you'll be just fine. If you have a tendancy toward motion sickness in real life, its probably going to be just as bad in VR.

 

I fly all the time as part of my job, and flying a sim on a flat screen just doesn't do it for me. I was ecstatic when VR finally developed to a decent level and the first consumer-grade headsets came onto the market. It represented everything I was trying to achieve with Helios and TrackIR, but it added the final component which is a sense of motion and depth perception. When the visuals get better, it will be like the Holy Grail.

ASRock Z370 Professional Gaming i7, Intel i7 8700K Coffee Lake processor @4.7GHz, Corsair H105 Liquid Cooler, G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 64GB DDR4 3400 memory, EVGA RTX3090 FTW3 Ultra 24GB video card, Samsung 840PRO 256MB SSD for Windows 10 64-bit OS, Samsung 850PRO 2TB SSD for program files, LG WH14NS40 Blu-Ray burner. HOTAS Warthog, Saitek Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Partridge and pear tree pending. pilotfly.gif

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I'm pretty much hemmed in by my HOTAS setup, so the restrictions to movement are about as real as it gets for VR. I just lack a glareshield and canopy rails to grab when I'm REALLY straining to get my eyes on something. :D

 

As far as the comments on motion sickness go, that possibility comes up with the lack of external visual cues in VR, which is also what tricks the brain into a sense of motion. But, all of those biological "gyros" are contained in your skull, so as long as you don't lose tracking, you'll be just fine. If you have a tendancy toward motion sickness in real life, its probably going to be just as bad in VR.

 

I fly all the time as part of my job, and flying a sim on a flat screen just doesn't do it for me. I was ecstatic when VR finally developed to a decent level and the first consumer-grade headsets came onto the market. It represented everything I was trying to achieve with Helios and TrackIR, but it added the final component which is a sense of motion and depth perception. When the visuals get better, it will be like the Holy Grail.

 

lol if i could turn my chair even like 5-10 degrees I'd have a much easier time looking behind me.

 

The holy grail for me would include higher FOV and maybe some curve around the side of your head, so i'm not met with a black wall when i look right or left with my eyeballs rather than my neck like I would when looking behind me when I'm driving.

 

Solution? Wingmen or spotting the enemy before they spot you lol. I was flying another sim but I had a blast in VR last night. 3 sorties, 3 kills with multiple assists, thrilling experiences of blood thirsty teammates being within inches of me as I squeeze a short burst and watch them connect on the enemy while going into a displacement roll. It would've been DCS but I got friends who haven't realized the power of the dark side yet. Still way better in VR than not. would do again 10/10.


Edited by Headwarp

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My 2 cents on the topic.

I play VR with Oculus Rift and a mild overclocked 1070.

Performance Is enough for me and I keep higher graphics than default VR settings.

Never "tweaked" my PC except the day I bought the Rift.

I play with voice attack too and the only things I need are my hotas, pedals, mouse and hmd. I do not use keyboard at all neither with fc3 planes (but they require more voice commands than clickable modules).

I do not know if or when we'll have a 2nd or 3rd gen hmd with higher resolution, higher fov, variable focus or foveated rendering, and I do not know if few AAA titles for VR Will slow hmd development. Maybe VR Is not suited for all kind of games, but imho It Is for sure suited for simulators.

The only thing I know Is that for me without VR there Is no Flight simulation.

If hmd development stopped, I would not play dcs or il-2 anymore.

I do not care about low resolution, low performance or low distant target detection: watching to a little portion of a cockpit through a flat screen Is not Flying, sitting inside the cockpit with all the instruments at a glance Is.

 

P.S. performance and target detection Is not only a VR issue: in il-2 these are better than in dcs so It Is also a DCS optimization issue. Anyway, the same I prefer dcs, but that's another topic of discussion...


Edited by nessuno0505
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lol if i could turn my chair even like 5-10 degrees I'd have a much easier time looking behind me.

 

The holy grail for me would include higher FOV and maybe some curve around the side of your head, so i'm not met with a black wall when i look right or left with my eyeballs rather than my neck like I would when looking behind me when I'm driving.

 

Better FOV would be excellent! Until that day comes, I'll just pretend I'm an A-10 pilot who suddenly got nostalgic and decided to put on an old fashioned Snoopy helmet and goggles. :pilotfly:

ASRock Z370 Professional Gaming i7, Intel i7 8700K Coffee Lake processor @4.7GHz, Corsair H105 Liquid Cooler, G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 64GB DDR4 3400 memory, EVGA RTX3090 FTW3 Ultra 24GB video card, Samsung 840PRO 256MB SSD for Windows 10 64-bit OS, Samsung 850PRO 2TB SSD for program files, LG WH14NS40 Blu-Ray burner. HOTAS Warthog, Saitek Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Partridge and pear tree pending. pilotfly.gif

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