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R-27ER update?


Schmidtfire
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According to what Chizh said in the Russian forum (and assuming I have not mis-interpreted), the R-27ER is correct as is. Its range is extended compared to the 27R.

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What? So it has already been changed? I thought it would recieve new navigation/flight characteristics to fly more efficiently...

 

Range has always been extended compared to the 27R. 27ER should (according to Keith "Okie" Nance) outrange the Aim-120, don't know if that is still the case with the new Aim-120 updates...

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I don't know who that is, and no, it shouldn't. While it can get up to higher peak speed in comparison with AMRAAM, it has neither the guidance tricks nor the low drag of the AMRAAM to be able to out-range it.

 

Range has always been extended compared to the 27R. 27ER should (according to Keith "Okie" Nance) outrange the Aim-120, don't know if that is still the case with the new Aim-120 updates...

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I don't know who that is, and no, it shouldn't. While it can get up to higher peak speed in comparison with AMRAAM, it has neither the guidance tricks nor the low drag of the AMRAAM to be able to out-range it.

 

This. The advantages of the R-27ER have always been a higher top speed and better acceleration. Assuming equal launch conditions it's never going to out-range an AIM-120C5 or god forbid a 120-D7.

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Ok, thanks for the info :) 3:40 into the video he mentions the Amraam vs 27ER.

 

 

"Okie" has 6000hrs in different fighters. 850 traps (300 night). A-4, F-14, F-5 agressor pilot, F-16 etc. Very knowledgeable about air-air combat and tactics. But it might be bad memory or

the Aim-120A he compare it against... Great Q/A, and another one recently came out.

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The AIM-7 reaches some 25nm where the R-27ER reaches 35nm (with lofting, the AIM-7 should come up to 30nm). Under those same circumstances (30000', 0.9M head-on) the AIM-120A (and B) falls almost squarely in the middle there at about 30nm. AIM-120C with its bigger rocket motor should easily match the R-27ER. That's all without lofting, and R-27's don't loft.

 

Of course, that's just armchair analysis so take it with a grain of salt.

 

As far as ED is concerned, they have the missiles where they believe they should be.


Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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The AIM-7 reaches some 25nm where the R-27ER reaches 35nm (with lofting, the AIM-7 should come up to 30nm). Under those same circumstances (30000', 0.9M head-on) the AIM-120A (and B) falls almost squarely in the middle there at about 30nm. AIM-120C with its bigger rocket motor should easily match the R-27ER. That's all without lofting, and R-27's don't loft.

 

Of course, that's just armchair analysis so take it with a grain of salt.

 

As far as ED is concerned, they have the missiles where they believe they should be.

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What? So it has already been changed? I thought it would recieve new navigation/flight characteristics to fly more efficiently...

 

Range has always been extended compared to the 27R. 27ER should (according to Keith "Okie" Nance) outrange the Aim-120, don't know if that is still the case with the new Aim-120 updates...

 

Remember that the Russian scientifics are dumb, and don't know how calculate an interception profile for a missile. They have been sending rockets to ISS eventually with pure child maths, not rocket science :D

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This. The advantages of the R-27ER have always been a higher top speed and better acceleration. Assuming equal launch conditions it's never going to out-range an AIM-120C5 or god forbid a 120-D7.

 

Why not? where is the proof? I have no seen any chart related to ER/ET flight and tests, like the AIM-120 published online. All references are from the old R/T models

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First. I am very unbiased. I fly both Blue and Red. Mostly Blue.

 

The Aim-120 is a much more advanced and superior missile. There is not a doubt about that. Just questioning if the guidance logic is correct on the 27ER. Even if it does not loft, I highly doubt that the Soviet/Russians would design a missile that pulls too much G's, bleeding energy like a stuck pig.

 

That was somewhat fixed with pn on other missiles like the Aim-120, Aim-7 and R-77. And that's really why I wondered about 27ER updates in the first place :)

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The current AA-10 series doesn't have any of the APN coefs updates added recently which could account for this (hence why I added them in a missile mod I run for myself). Again the issue with most missiles in DCS is two fold kinematics and guidance. The kinematics wouldn't be so bad (would still have an effect just not as noticeable) if the guidance wasn't so bad. The guidance only exacerbates the high drag of the missiles and seems to have forced ED to have significantly lowered the Cl values to limit the amount of induced drag the missiles accumulate. (Note how after the AIM7 got APN guidance the lift of the missile was increased from like .5ish to 2.22 when subsonic and 1.05 when supersonic making it more maneuverable then just about any other missile in the game save small/short range IR.)


Edited by nighthawk2174
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All missiles have always had PN (otherwise they wouldn't hit anything). What they have done is change the algorithm to APN together with N varied by range.

 

 

 

First. I am very unbiased. I fly both Blue and Red. Mostly Blue.

 

The Aim-120 is a much more advanced and superior missile. There is not a doubt about that. Just questioning if the guidance logic is correct on the 27ER. Even if it does not loft, I highly doubt that the Soviet/Russians would design a missile that pulls too much G's, bleeding energy like a stuck pig.

 

That was somewhat fixed with pn on other missiles like the Aim-120, Aim-7 and R-77. And that's really why I wondered about 27ER updates in the first place :)

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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The thing I would love to see it buddy sharing target illumination with other aircraft of which ER is capable, making it way harder to notch and much easier to be sneaky.

 

About the interception algorithms, the good reference is the Sam Simulator. When you see all the interception modes and leading modes an S-75 Divna had and it is a 25-year older missile then R-27ER you would be amazed.

 

To conclude, I feel that the R-27ER is a bit underperforming in DCS in the guidance department

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There is data on the R-27ER/T in the real flanker manual, which is available online.

 

Where in the book? I have the russian version and only talks about the missiles specs and launch parameters, pylons positions, etc but no chart or study about the ER per se.


Edited by JunMcKill
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The thing I would love to see it buddy sharing target illumination with other aircraft of which ER is capable, making it way harder to notch and much easier to be sneaky.

 

 

You're never going to see it because in fact it isn't done. Aircraft radars are quite deliberately set up to operate on different channels in order to avoid self-inflicted ECM which can result in a lot of fun things for your radars and any missiles in flight, including premature fuze triggering.

 

 

 

About the interception algorithms, the good reference is the Sam Simulator. When you see all the interception modes and leading modes an S-75 Divna had and it is a 25-year older missile then R-27ER you would be amazed.

 

 

To conclude, I feel that the R-27ER is a bit underperforming in DCS in the guidance department

 

 

I highly doubt that ED will reference another game. And S-25 guidance is nothing like homing PN guidance.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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It's somewhere in there but since I don't want to be flipping through it, here's an image. There's more stuff than this but I don't care to go through and dig it all up.

 

[ATTACH]37859[/ATTACH]

 

Where in the book? I have the russian version and only talks about the missiles specs and launch parameters, pylons positions, etc but no chart or study about the ER per se.

Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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If they are updating all missiles, there should be no reason for the R-27 family to not see some upgrades. Its possible that the ER and ET wont profit much, however the 27R and T should at least see some improvement. At the moment their no escape zone lies below the minimum range in most situations, making them practically worthless (although their maximum ranges are simulated properly).

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My big question is what is defined as RMax for those graphs? Is it that the missile is stalling out and about to fall out of the sky? Or is it that RMax is that it can pull x amount of g's for x amount of seconds? Saying Rmax is modeled correctly is irrelevant unless we define what rmax means, imho (emphasis on the h) the current definition that DCS based the AA10 series off of is not correct and that the missiles are still too draggy (beyond the guidance problems).

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