I saw the announcement for Modern Air Combat and I don't understand what it is

[fergrim]

I own DCS and like fifteen paid modules for it, and I don't see at all how modern air combat fits in.

 

Is it meant to be like war thunder, except more sim'ish and modern only?

 

Is it meant to be simply a facelift for DCS' multiplayer?

 

Are the aircraft offered in it going to be redesigns of aircraft already in DCS? Or are DCS aircraft we already own identical to the ones announced for MAC

 

If we own DCS, do we own MAC? Will the aircraft in that be sold separately? Will it be free and depending upon microtransactions for sales?

 

If it's a standalone project not related to DCS, do we know if it will be competing with DCS for development resources?

 

When I saw the announcement I felt like I was supposed to know what that product even is, and I don't think I've ever been so confused

[71st_Mastiff]

Flaming Cliffs, on steroids...

This is my opinion and mine alone ( my take on the whole MAC affair)

a select few FC and DCS added aircraft for Flight Sim enthusiast, but without all the study sim parts. Real Flight model mechanics, but from what I understand no clickable pits straight simple cockpit controls, i.e throttle, stick pedals, I believe mouse control also.

 

Its for people that don't have a lot of money to spend on all the controls and paraphernalia needed to get high ( in the air)...

 

This is what I understand.

[Varis]

FC3 successor for new players who don't have the skillbase to learn high-fidelity aircraft quickly. (Or people who insist on modern Russian aircraft outside of helicopters.)

[fergrim]

I wasn't here for FC3, all I know of it is its current form, professional flight model and less detail, although I still feel like I learn a lot and have a lot of fun with the FC3 ones I own.

 

I also love russian aircraft, but overall realism is very important to me. I may love russian aircraft more than the US ones (because living in the US we hear about how great we are from childhood on - so learning about russian aircraft and capabilities is like a whole new world and eye opening as to the large gap between the propaganda we grow up with and the reality)

 

So what WAS FC3? I assume the FC3 aircraft in DCS now are a lot more realistic than they were when FC3 was released.

 

Is this MAC game supposed to basically totally ignore realism in favor of WoW-esque multiplayer balance?

 

Basically if I play DCS because I appreciate the educational and realism aspects then I won't want anything to do with this new one?

 

Also, MAC's list of aircraft were all aircraft currently available in DCS IIRC - but they wouldn't be the same ones? Just highly dumbed down versions of them?

[Blinde]

I think it's rubbish to spend money on developing this kind of simplified simulation instead of focusing on DCS and fixing problems on it.

[Flogger23m]

I wasn't here for FC3, all I know of it is its current form, professional flight model and less detail, although I still feel like I learn a lot and have a lot of fun with the FC3 ones I own.

 

I also love russian aircraft, but overall realism is very important to me. I may love russian aircraft more than the US ones (because living in the US we hear about how great we are from childhood on - so learning about russian aircraft and capabilities is like a whole new world and eye opening as to the large gap between the propaganda we grow up with and the reality)

 

So what WAS FC3? I assume the FC3 aircraft in DCS now are a lot more realistic than they were when FC3 was released.

 

Is this MAC game supposed to basically totally ignore realism in favor of WoW-esque multiplayer balance?

 

Basically if I play DCS because I appreciate the educational and realism aspects then I won't want anything to do with this new one?

 

Also, MAC's list of aircraft were all aircraft currently available in DCS IIRC - but they wouldn't be the same ones? Just highly dumbed down versions of them?

 

 

My understanding is that it is essentially FC4, with some added aircraft. They didn't bother to make new aircraft but rather simplify some of the current ones. I don't mind this, but the selection of aircraft is a bit underwhelming. I would like an F-18 or similar modern aircraft but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Clearly, full fidelity modules are the direction ED is going.

 

What I don't understand is if it will be a traditional module like FC3 or a standalone game. I would hope it is an integrated module. I'm interested in buying it mainly to standardize the controls with the MIG-21 and the FC3 aircraft I fly. I wish the Mirage 2000C would be included but again, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

I only fly the MIG-21/Mirage 2000C maybe a few times each year and memorizing the different control layouts is something I simply don't have time for. That is one of the trade off of ultra high fidelity modules. They market is crowded and most people won't have time for more than one. Add in the extra development time & cost and you have to raise the cost. That becomes a hard sell. I'd love to try the F-14 as an example, but if I purchase the F-18 I won't be buying the F-14 anytime soon. Maybe 2-3 years down the line when it is 60% off or more.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Flogger23m

[59thCasper]

I think it's rubbish to spend money on developing this kind of simplified simulation instead of focusing on DCS and fixing problems on it.

 

Have to agree, its a simulator. Its supposed to take time to learn, It is not an arcade game!

[Oceandar]

I think it's rubbish to spend money on developing this kind of simplified simulation instead of focusing on DCS and fixing problems on it.

Probably from one point of view but when we talk about business its different story. Like it or not, Its the Flaming Cliffs the best selling product for ED.

[Seb71]

From the description in the latest newsletter, I get the impression that it won't be a module for DCS (like I expected), but a separate game, with its own launcher. At least it sounds like this.

 

 

 

Modern Air Combat (MAC) Update

 

Since the announcement of MAC, we have been listening to customer feedback and we have been busy expanding the product to maximize your enjoyment. In addition to the 14 aircraft and four maps, we’ve been engaged with the following features that will bring the product to the next level flight game entertainment:

 

• A redesigned Mission Generator that allows you to easily create exciting missions based on a selected mission type. This will provide a much more focused and fun gameplay experience that is designed around action and fun
  
• An entirely new interface. MAC will feature a very modern, intuitive and beautiful interface that will feel at home in 2018!
  
• Taking advantage of the new Dedicated Server system, MAC will allow you to earn accomplishments and points that you can then use to purchase DCS World products. The new system has a detailed point-earning system that is also tied to leader boards and record scores
  
• Enhanced assists to help new players will come with MAC like auto-trim, navigation and target marker locations, and unified control inputs
  

All of this will result in a much better product, but it has extended our development time. We look forward to bringing you MAC in the 2019!

[msalama]

rubbish to spend money on developing this kind of simplified

 

No, it's not. The long-standing bugs and problems should of course be fixed ASAP, but flying games are nevertheless more popular than HC simulations and thus a good source of cash flow for any sim studio. So it's not "rubbish to spend money" on them as you put it, but rather a wise development decision.

 

Now I'm a hard-core sim enthusiast myself and as such, would love to see all survey sim BS just vanish. But since it won't, we should accept that it's here to stay and carry on.

[FragBum]

Plus the developers get to try new stuff out, just saying. :thumbup:

[msalama]

Plus the developers get to try new stuff out, just saying.

 

Do you mean in the sense of testing the waters with a shallow model first and then developing a fully-fledged version later if the enthusiasm is there? Because that's not necessarily a bad idea at all.

[hannibal]

MAC is GOOD

 

we started from somewhere.

DCS Level planes are not for everyone.

Variety is good for the community.

If you dont want MAC, stick to DCS level planes. at least you have a choice.

MAC is excellent for VR.

Most Hotas are able to accomodate controls to play in VR.

MAC can bring beginners into the fold, especially in multiplayer.

eventually some of those beginners will choose to challenge themselves to DCS level aircraft.

 

It makes the entry to DCS/MAC sim less hard, and more enjoyable to those wanting to do combat flight sim in the introduction to DCS world.

 

i almost did not come back to this community in the beginning when LOMAC was around and the black shark was in development.

if it wasnt for hyperlobby and a few good pilots (FedEx and SlowHand) that were patient enough to break me into LOMAC, i would not be here, and that wasnt even DCS level planes. DCS can be fustrating for new people...

 

MAC is a welcome in my book.

[etherbattx]

products that generate new revenue are always welcome.

 

products that bring in new flight sim enthusiasts are always welcome (and needed)

[Kailux]

I assume MAC and DCS:W won't interact multiplayer wise?

 

Then i really don't care; if it's good revenue: why not? Helps fund DCS level modules and for some players it will be first blood; they for sure will show up in DCS:W on some point.

 

 

Edit: i just learned it's a module, not a separate game. That's horrible. I've seen several niche communities invaded by hordes of action-oriented casuals in the last years and it killed them all; at least for the non-casuals (that's for the online experience, server gameplay. Singleplayer obviously isn't affected by mixing).

Edited December 30, 2018 by Kailux

[hannibal]

I assume MAC and DCS:W won't interact multiplayer wise?

 

Then i really don't care; if it's good revenue: why not? Helps fund DCS level modules and for some players it will be first blood; they for sure will show up in DCS:W on some point.

 

 

Edit: i just learned it's a module, not a separate game. That's horrible. I've seen several niche communities invaded by hordes of action-oriented casuals in the last years and it killed them all; at least for the non-casuals (that's for the online experience, server gameplay. Singleplayer obviously isn't affected by mixing).

 

thats why theres already private servers. MAC aint even out for that.

you already got fresh TK'ers that show up on current servers because there will always ppl dont know what they are doing.

 

hopefully an in game chat system will improve the community of the mulitplayer, MAC or no MAC..

[Headwarp]

I assume MAC and DCS:W won't interact multiplayer wise?

 

Then i really don't care; if it's good revenue: why not? Helps fund DCS level modules and for some players it will be first blood; they for sure will show up in DCS:W on some point.

 

 

Edit: i just learned it's a module, not a separate game. That's horrible. I've seen several niche communities invaded by hordes of action-oriented casuals in the last years and it killed them all; at least for the non-casuals (that's for the online experience, server gameplay. Singleplayer obviously isn't affected by mixing).

 

Flaming cliffs has been a part of DCS world for some time now. MAC is FC3 + 4 aircraft that they already have flight models and 3d models for and adds some appeal for newcomers. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the brunt of development for converting these aircraft to FC3 making a long list of controls and modes to switch from, that add's to the base package that I'm calling "The Gateway Drug." The whole point afaik was something easy to develop while adding to the top selling module in DCS World.

 

Newcomers are a good thing. It's not targeted at the die hard sim enthusiast who likely already own all of the full fidelity modules.

 

Have you not flown any of the FC3 aircraft? Like, the most common aircraft in multiplayer?

 

It's a good entrypoint for newbies. Most of the friends I've got interested in the game by starting them out with FC3 have grown to adopt quite a few full fidelity modules. Hence the gateway drug. A $20-$40 package with all the FC3 aircraft is easier to bite than $80 for one aircraft for someone unaccustomed to simming and we all started somewhere. And the addition of 4 more aircraft in that package affords them a bit higher pricetag.

 

And let's be real here.. FC3 aircraft require more button binding on my hotas setup than I require for click pits.. and you still have to learn the basics of flight, understand what you're seeing on your radar, know the limitations of missiles and weaponry. The controls list is huge and intimidating. It's not exactly child's play.

 

Frankly I have just as much fun in the DCS F-15C or Flanker or Fulcrum as I do in the M2K, the hornet which i don't fly in MP as I'm awaiting the improved IFF and LTWS and TWS. Soon the Tomcat.

 

I highly doubt this is going to have an effect on ANYONE's gameplay at all. ANd this has all been said before in threads regarding mac. The people who seem upset at this idea imo should take a chill pill, go take a flight in any given one of the modules within DCS and have fun.

 

I won't be buying MAC, I already have the full fidelity models of the 4 coming aircraft. But if this makes that first initial purchase that much more appealing to friends I bring into the game or new players. It's a good thing. The community can afford to grow. Whether it be FC3 F-15's or mirage's tomcats and hornets.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Headwarp

[Mars Exulte]

Do you mean in the sense of testing the waters with a shallow model first and then developing a fully-fledged version later if the enthusiasm is there? Because that's not necessarily a bad idea at all.

 

I think Wags stated as much back when all this was first announced. Stuff they want to do but is kind of risky saleswise is apt to get rolled out as survey level addon first, then if it sells well/pays for itself can be expanded into a full module later.

 

Say you've got an F-16? You know it's going to sell well, skip this stage go straight to full sim. But maybe you want to do something obscure, or try a new 'style' of aircraft and not sure how it will pan out... test the waters with MAC, then if it turns out ok, you know you can take the leap.

 

 

 

@OP

 

MAC is nothing more than a continuation of the survey level Flaming Cliffs series. It's been rebranded as Modern Air Combat and had some new aircraft added to it that were probably fairly easy to convert. Nothing more, nothing less. Flaming Cliffs 3 will cease to exist being replaced by MAC. It also will have small parts of some of the new maps.

 

No you do not automatically get it, but you do keep any aircraft you already have. As for individual sales, I have not seen anything indicating if the aircraft are available separately, although it's likely they will be considering how Flaming Cliffs was broke up.

[Mouse_99]

On the fence

 

I do not have FC3, and I'm thinking about waiting for MAC, but now I understand it to be a separate thing altogether, now I', not so sure that I might go with FC3. I am betting they might kill off FC3 if they can't get people into MAC, money is everything, so force them into it. I might just not bother with either. :cry:

[Kailux]

Flaming cliffs has been a part of DCS world for some time now. This is just something that they already have flight models and 3d models for and adds some appeal for newcomers.

 

Newcomers are a good thing. It's not targeted at the die hard sim enthusiast who likely already own all of the full fidelity modules.

 

Have you not flown any of the FC3 aircraft? Like, the most common aircraft in multiplayer?

 

It's a good entrypoint for newbies. Most of the friends I've got interested in the game by starting them out with FC3 have grown to adopt quite a few full fidelity modules.

 

I've got FC3 myself and i agree it's a good entry point for newcomers. I've got no problem with MAC singleplayer wise, if you read my post, i absolutely second it regarding this.

 

But regarding the point i mentioned - server gameplay/PvP - FC3 is already a big inbalance. I found a pretty nice YT comment, that explains it well... and MAC will just make it worse (plus: aircraft that easy you can fly them with your mouse attracts a certain kind of people, and they are cancer to niche games. Servers will turn into a kindergarden VERY quickly)

[Mars Exulte]

@mouse

It's not killing anything off. They're effectively the same thing. MAC is replacing FC3.

 

@kailux

Online balance is the server operators problem and due to mission design. That's got nothing to do with any modules, as the only stuff available is what the mission designer puts in there. If online play sucks or is imbalanced, it's usually going to be because whoever made the mission is an idiot.

[Headwarp]

I've got FC3 myself and i agree it's a good entry point for newcomers. I've got no problem with MAC singleplayer wise, if you read my post, i absolutely second it regarding this.

 

But regarding the point i mentioned - server gameplay/PvP - FC3 is already a big inbalance. I found a pretty nice YT comment, that explains it well... and MAC will just make it worse (plus: aircraft that easy you can fly them with your mouse attracts a certain kind of people, and they are cancer to niche games. Servers will turn into a kindergarden VERY quickly)

 

Once the Hornet gets better IFF I'm sure it will compete pretty well with the current FC3 aircraft.

 

10 spamrams for dinner? In the mirage once I'm setup for combat there's really not a lot of difference in operating it's weapon systems and operating any of the FC-3 fighters.

 

So far, it just so happens that no one has developed a fighter capable of going toe to toe with the airfames from FC3 which use professional flight models at this point.

 

I'm generally set up to the point where I only need hotas controls in most click pits by the time I'm actually in a fight or landing, and I can also designate my own waypoints in most clickpits where fc3 aircraft have to be set in the mission editor. Operating the M2K radar is pretty much same sensation as operating the F-15 radar.

 

The F-14 jester AI will yell at you when an enemy's on your six.

 

I kind of doubt that a full fidelity F-15C module would be any less formidable than it's FC3 counterpart.

[4eyes]

I am 68 years old, physically disabled, and now cognitive challenged. Isn't there room in DCS for us? A full fidelity aircraft is out of reach for many of us who enjoy flying. Can we at least have a occasional bone?

[Mars Exulte]

I am 68 years old, physically disabled, and now cognitive challenged. Isn't there room in DCS for us? A full fidelity aircraft is out of reach for many of us who enjoy flying. Can we at least have a occasional bone?

 

Strictly speaking, that's not a DCS problem, considering there are plenty of alternative sims that are far less complex. The logical answer here is 'play a less complex sim' not 'dumb down an already complex one'. It's similar to complaining about a reflex based shooter being reflex based and requesting auto aim so you can compete, instead of simply playing a different genre.

 

I'm not opposed to the survey aircraft, but what you just said is a competely backasswards line of reasoning.

[4eyes]

Strictly speaking, that's not a DCS problem, considering there are plenty of alternative sims that are far less complex. The logical answer here is 'play a less complex sim' not 'dumb down an already complex one'. It's similar to complaining about a reflex based shooter being reflex based and requesting auto aim so you can compete, instead of simply playing a different genre.

 

I'm not opposed to the survey aircraft, but what you just said is a competely backasswards line of reasoning.

 

 

 

 

Which Sim has the same quality of military aircraft as DCS has?

 

 

competely backasswards line of reasoning? I would like to have this same discussion with you when you become crippled, begin to lose your eyesight, and hearing.

 

 

 

I see room in DCS for both kinds of aircraft. Maybe, it's the elitists who need to find a different flight simulator?