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VEAO & Hawk discussion (please mind the forum rules)


FZG_Immel
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I think it's important to keep having discussions about such as digital purchases and early access because it can only serve to make people more aware of the risk and make people more wary.

 

On the subject of the thread title "VEAO & Hawk discussion"

1. How do we download the last version of DCS the Hawk ran on? (if we already updated etc.)

2. Is anything currently going on behind-the-scenes between ED and VEAO that ED can comment on?

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Ignoring my points, patronising, and pretending that your own opinion is of great value while ignoring mine doesn't make you right, it makes you an arse. I'm out.

 

I didn't ignore your points. I pointed out how you were wrong. And my opinion is based on the 4 years of college I had for business management. Have you had the schooling? It's not my opinion, it is fairly basic knowledge for that type of schooling. I was just trying to impart that knowledge on people who seem to have a somewhat skewed view on what is going on here. Unless there are warranties involved, no one is entitled to anything back. 3 months for digital content is a fairly reasonable period of time for a refund, even though it is not required. And, as has been stated before, no amount of arguing it is going to change the fact that no one is entitled to anything back. To put it another way, when you buy early access, you are buying the product AS IS in its current state with no guarantees that it will ever be finished. If you did sign an agreement stating you WILL receive the finished product, then you have a legitimate argument. But you must have that paperwork handy if you intend on fighting it.

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I think it's important to keep having discussions about such as digital purchases and early access because it can only serve to make people more aware of the risk and make people more wary.

 

On the subject of the thread title "VEAO & Hawk discussion"

1. How do we download the last version of DCS the Hawk ran on? (if we already updated etc.)

2. Is anything currently going on behind-the-scenes between ED and VEAO that ED can comment on?

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I have spent money on a few EA projects that have flopped and I was out the money, but I NEVER went whining for that money back. I knew EXACTLY what I was getting into and it just didn't pan out. ALL EA modules in ED's store are clearly listed as such. I never bought the Hawk, mainly because I was told it was less than good and not worth the money even on sale. I do, however, have the Hornet, Tomcat, Harrier and Viggen and have gotten way more than my money's worth on them, with the exception of the Tomcat, though I have no doubts I will on that, too. I know what early access entails and will never demand a refund if some unforeseen thing like this happens. And definitely wouldn't try to get anything out of a party who has ZERO ownership in it.

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I did originally want something from ED on hearing what had happened, but it was my fault for buying the Hawk (and never reading T's and C's), and I've come to realise refunds from a company who didn't receive all the money is unreasonable and unenforceable and even a gesture would drain resources from their ability to operate as is.

 

Now, I think that it's enough to keep the Hawk in the game (albeit an outdated version, but that isn't ED's fault, VEAO wouldn't grant the code and I'm glad future agreements will include a clause to enforce as such) and refund only recent buyers.

 

I now buy modules in the mindset that there's little possibility I'll have them forever, and that I should buy them in a state I'm willing to invest lots of time in now, not later.


Edited by Birko
Grammar and forgot to mention a thing
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Have to agree with Flamin Squirrel here. It's a bit laughable (at best) to compare normal gamers and simmers to evangelist investors.

 

Furthermore ED is not offering a (optional) sales medium. IMHO they enforce module sales to be funneled through it's channels.

I could be wrong but what paid module (airframe or terrain) is out there for DCS that has a seperate store site and takes care of patching and DRM on it's own AND pass the integrity check? I could be wrong but I'm very sure there is none.

Again: leading me to the conclusion all sales have to go through ED at some point.

 

Currently it's really hard to see that a module sold on the DCS store OR Steam store is not an official model provided, backed and not supported at all by Eagle Dynamics. in other words: becoming unavailable and / or next to useless when the 3rd party developers stops updating it.

 

A visual example: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/013/Christen-Eagle-2_Box-Art_v2_700x1000.jpg

Now who'd guess what can happen to this if things turn south?

 

Sadly this lack of clarity appears to be a new trend seeing not only limited to DCS, for example X-Plane also sells (some, not even all!) 3rd party addons directly on Steam. Even worse, why those selected few, not the others? No idea. No disclaimers either.

 

While I would prefer that 3rd party products would NOT be sold over official store channels (digitalcombatsimulator.com / DCS on Steam) I guess it's too late to pull back on that.

However, I'm not a fan at looking at the worst (like x-plane) and aiming for that. When risks are involved it should be made 100% clear. For example by adding disclaimers for:

A) Early Access products and

B) 3rd Party Products

 

Those should clearly state if the product in question is looking for:

A) Early access funding with the risk of being canceled before reaching a usable state or

B) is "just" a 3rd party product that will not receive support by ED

 

B could be further refined since it's actually untrue - modules are receiving patches THROUGH ED, not through external 3rd parties. So that in itself is... questionable. In fact I believe DCS patching and breaking things left and right all the time makes it even harder for 3rd party studios to contribute models in a reasonable way.

 

 

That said I am seeing big risks in general with the way DCS works right now.

  • Most high selling planes are taken already.
    What will be the incentive for 3rd party developers to take lesser known planes that won't sell nearly as much as an F-14 e.g.?
  • Trainer planes are no market to me anyways and likely contributed to why the Hawk was pulled.
    Additionaly paid trainer planes make it harder for the community to onboard newbies properly and no newbie will buy them - especially not at those prices.
    Everyone I've seen, and I mean 100%, were experienced pilots just buying them because they can or for airshow purposes.
  • Even as for maps DCS is in an interesting situation. The terrain we have is rather... dated. It looks washed out and lacks the detail to perceive height properly / orient yourself well visually.
    It also covers theaters that are low in actual event background depth - aside from Cauc that is.
    On top of that the paid maps / terrains are fracturing the community and the lack of opening DCS to mapmaking is taxing the community (myself included, I think it's an insult to keep this sealed off).

So I'm interested how DCS actually wants to keep community developers and 3rd party developers yet alone get new ones on board. Only time will tell.


Edited by Madfish

Best regards

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I did originally want something from ED on hearing what had happened, but it was my fault for buying the Hawk (and never reading T's and C's), and I've come to realise refunds from a company who didn't receive all the money is unreasonable and unenforceable and even a gesture would drain resources from their ability to operate as is.

 

Now, I think that it's enough to keep the Hawk in the game (albeit an outdated version, but that isn't ED's fault, VEAO wouldn't grant the code and I'm glad future agreements will include a clause to enforce as such) and refund only recent buyers.

 

I now buy modules in the mindset that there's little possibility I'll have them forever, and that I should buy them in a state I'm willing to invest lots of time in now, not later.

+1

 

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Hawk is water under bridge.. I am more worried about all other 3rd party modules whose contract were signed until now. Does this mean that we will lose those modules if their vendor decides to leave? I mean, most small software companies end up closed or broken up, especially in flight sim area. So, I think this reduces the value of all 3rd party.. I would feel much more comfortable if other 3rd parties voluntarily agree and announce that they will give the source to ED if this happens.. Especially those that are close to releasing their products in the next few months.

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Simple: DO NOT ARGUE = NO PRE-PURCHASED.

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Hawk try to rape me tonight.

thats on you.

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Why is this thread still going lol

 

i think a better question is what is going on in this thread...

Link to my Imgur screenshots and motto

 

http://imgur.com/a/Gt7dF

One day in DCS... Vipers will fly along side Tomcats... Bugs with Superbugs, Tiffy's with Tornado's, Fulcrums with Flankers and Mirage with Rafales...

:)The Future of DCS is a bright one:)

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
I upgraded from 2.5.3 to 2.5.4 now HAWK no longer works ............ can I restore the HAWK module? I have not even had a BONUS PURCHASES because?

 

I have not yet deleted and dis-enabled HAWK remains among the folders.

 

 

 

CAN YOU BE RESTORED?

Lol

 

You are late to the party. Just a quick read in the forum and you will understsnd why.

 

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Hawk works with 2.5.3 only (attached picture from the E-Shop).

hawk.JPG.be5efdac4f988ea144337ff2557a9e09.JPG

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Hawk works with 2.5.3 only (attached picture from the E-Shop).

 

 

it is possible to make HAWK run for versions that come after 2.5.3?

 

can you find a solution to this problem?

 

 

but DCS FC do not have hawk files? why did they remove the module?

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I ask myself if they should fail:

RAZBAM

HETBLUR SIMULATION

AVIO DEV

PLYCHOP SIMULATION

MAGNITUDE 3

MILTEC5

We would also lose the other modules

can not you find a solution to this?

 

ED have changed their contracts so that if a third party ceases trading they must hand over their source code to ED. I'm not sure if this applies retrospectively though.

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If you want to continue flying the Hawk, try this: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=230808

 

Any version later than 2.5.3 doesn't support the Hawk anymore. ED can't solve the problem, because VEAO (or what's left of those two guys) doesn't want to hand over the code to them. VEAO won't solve the problem, because maybe they don't even care. They already have your money. :D


Edited by norbot

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it is possible to make HAWK run for versions that come after 2.5.3?

 

can you find a solution to this problem?

 

 

but DCS FC do not have hawk files? why did they remove the module?

 

Could be worse . You could have bought the P-40 .

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