Easy Refuel Option

[JumpinK]

Your suggestion makes no sense. AAR is entirely option. So if someone enjoys DCS, can play it competently, but doesn't AAR, they should play Ace Combat? Why would they do that? Why would they even consider it?

 

There is no right way to use DCS. It's completely up to each given user. No one has to master AAR to have the right to play.

 

 

Maybe you're right BUT the title says "Digital Combat Simulator" not "Digital Combat Easy Acarde Mode Game" and if you ask me about what a simulator should be then i would say "as close to reality as it can get" and because of this easy options are maybe a nice extra for players, but an unnecessary feature for a simulation which should indeed simulate real conditions. Again. This is just my personal opinion and i'm not sorry if anyone feels offended.:smilewink:

[Donut]

After flying the Tomcat, the Hornet is the easy AAR option. :)

[shagrat]

Maybe you're right BUT the title says "Digital Combat Simulator" not "Digital Combat Easy Acarde Mode Game"

That's why I put the original description from the Eagle Dynamics Shop earlier.

It precisely clarifies what to expect from Digital Combat Simulator World...

I'll cite again: (...)"DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet."(...)

(...)"*Both hardcore realistic and casual gameplay modes and options available."(...)

[JumpinK]

Yep. And that is only EDs fault. They wanna make more money and so they have to sell "half baked aircraft" for everyone. FC3 and MAC are nowhere near a simulation. In fact only the full fidelity models are simulations of their real world counterparts. Everything else is just arcade game crap to make money

[59thCasper]

its all practice, hell i know guys who refuel using xbox pads!, i dont believe the option should be in, but more in depth tutorials, just like boxes on switches, u should have boxes around your visual points etc, telling you speeds etc.

 

It can be done guys, just keep trying and it will click :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yep. And that is only EDs fault. They wanna make more money and so they have to sell "half baked aircraft" for everyone. FC3 and MAC are nowhere near a simulation. In fact only the full fidelity models are simulations of their real world counterparts. Everything else is just arcade game crap to make money

 

Again, you've made no case as to why having an option to make things easier takes anything away from the high fidelity modules ED produce.

 

Also the FC3 planes have proper flight models, so to say they are nowhere near a simulation simply isn't true either.

 

I'm up for as much of a faithful recreation of the real aircraft as we can get, but if DCS followed through with your argument to its logical conclusion, DCS would only allow you to start on prop trainers, then uninstall itself because you weren't good enough.

[shagrat]

Yep. And that is only EDs fault. They wanna make more money and so they have to sell "half baked aircraft" for everyone. FC3 and MAC are nowhere near a simulation. In fact only the full fidelity models are simulations of their real world counterparts. Everything else is just arcade game crap to make money

That is a misconception. As Wags made very clear it enables them to fund the ongoing development.

If you ever wondered why there aren't dozens of sophisticated combat flight simulations around, it might have to do with the effort vs. revenue. If ED would follow your wish, it would likely cause the end of DCS in the long term.

And still you are only arguing to deny others something they want, despite it won't take away anything from you, out of... hmm, what actually is the emotion driving you to do this? Jealousy? I really don't understand, what an option that you are not forced to use takes away from you or anybody else?

Haters gonna hate... :dunno:

[shagrat]

its all practice, hell i know guys who refuel using xbox pads!, i dont believe the option should be in, but more in depth tutorials, just like boxes on switches, u should have boxes around your visual points etc, telling you speeds etc.

 

It can be done guys, just keep trying and it will click :)

The whole point is, I don't have the time(!) to try and try and try again.

I could stop doing ED translations, testing stuff etc., but I would prefer an option. As much as I like to start planes from cold and dark and doing proper landing and shutdown, at times, I also use the auto start-up a lot, as well as inflight spawning, especially to test stuff. That is why options are such a cool thing. A mission builder might also find it helpful to test his mission, without the need to acquire perfect AAR skills for ALL aircraft he puts in the mission... and the list of benefits for the feature goes on. :)

[Tom Kazansky]

I'm glad ED's DCS World is no democracy.

[Exorcet]

Yep. And that is only EDs fault. They wanna make more money and so they have to sell "half baked aircraft" for everyone. FC3 and MAC are nowhere near a simulation. In fact only the full fidelity models are simulations of their real world counterparts. Everything else is just arcade game crap to make money

Not only is FC3 a simulation, it's a good one too. On what basis is an arcade game? That seems like it would be a pretty hard position to defend.

[JumpinK]

Yes. Of course, you are right. Even if you tell me 1+1=5. And an aircraft without usable switches is almost a perfect simulation of it's real world counterpart. Sure it is!:thumbup:

 

You want DCS as an arcade game, I want a high fidelity simulation.

And I don't want ED to use developing resources for implementing unrealistic stuff like easy refuelling or similar easy options.

And believe it or not, this is again only my personal opinion.

 

So please feel as offended as you want!:smilewink:

I'm out of this discussion.

[Exorcet]

Yes. Of course, you are right. Even if you tell me 1+1=5. And an aircraft without usable switches is almost a perfect simulation of it's real world counterpart. Sure it is!:thumbup:

Well if you want to raise the bar to perfect simulation, keep in mind that DCS becomes an arcade game. There are even areas where ED have flat out said they will not realistically simulate because they can't (classified info, etc)

 

 

You want DCS as an arcade game

Based on what? This is the furthest thing from the truth.

 

 

 

 

And I don't want ED to use developing resources for implementing unrealistic stuff like easy refuelling or similar easy options.

OK, that's a reasonable argument against easy refuel, although we don't actually know how hard it would be to make. If it's easy to add, no one loses anything by the addition. Realistic refueling is also already in the game (as it should be, since in a simulation the most realistic options should take priority) so having easy refuel again takes away nothing from the simulation aspect.

 

 

 

And believe it or not, this is again only my personal opinion.

 

So please feel as offended as you want!

Obviously it is your opinion. I don't know why offense has to be brought up. Is discussing ideas offensive? I mostly get into threads like this because sometimes there appears a bit of a kneejerk reaction to anything that isn't considered 100% accurate as being bad for the game. It doesn't really make sense to me and it's the kind of thing that can potentially make DCS a worse sim by not acknowledging the limitations of trying to fly an aircraft on a PC. It also often turns out that people are only afraid of "arcade" options when they're new. For example in this thread people would point to unlimited fuel as solving the AAR issue despite it being lacking in a number of simulation aspects. If the only argument is ED resources, you can make sense out of that. People have been pointing to anything else as a reason though.

 

 

Anyway, as you said it's your opinion, but as this is a forum it's only natural for a discussion to grow out of opinions.

[Tippis]

Yes. Of course, you are right. Even if you tell me 1+1=5. And an aircraft without usable switches is almost a perfect simulation of it's real world counterpart. Sure it is!:thumbup:

That's not what he said, now is it?

 

He said that FC3 is a simulation, and a good one too.

 

You want DCS as an arcade game, I want a high fidelity simulation.

That's not what he said, now is it?

 

You're also missing the point: adding an easy refuel option does not rob you of your high-fidelity simulation in any way. DCS can serve multiple roles at once — that's the beauty of it all — but the only one who's ever suggested that it should somehow become an arcade game is you. No-one actually wants that though, so your argument against that line of development is pretty nonsensical.

 

And I don't want ED to use developing resources for implementing unrealistic stuff like easy refuelling or similar easy options.

You realise, of course, that development resources go towards implementing realistic stuff, and that offering options to not engage those is not something that particularly adds to that load. Indeed, that's why we currently have highly unrealistic refuelling, and they've said that they're committing resources to make it more realistic.

 

You are making assumptions about what is and isn't difficult to create that do not seem particularly rooted in what ED has actually said about… well… anything. So this line of reasoning does not make much sense.

[shagrat]

Yes. Of course, you are right. Even if you tell me 1+1=5. And an aircraft without usable switches is almost a perfect simulation of it's real world counterpart. Sure it is!

 

You want DCS as an arcade game, I want a high fidelity simulation.

And I don't want ED to use developing resources for implementing unrealistic stuff like easy refuelling or similar easy options.

And believe it or not, this is again only my personal opinion.

 

So please feel as offended as you want!:smilewink:

I'm out of this discussion.

The good thing is, ED has not to rely on such brilliant business strategists. Thank God!

Su-27 Flanker, Flanker 2.0, Lock On Modern Air Combat, Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, where ALL high fidelity combat flight simulations at their release...

We get a broad spectrum of flight simulation aspects with a high degree of accessibility, as advertised and not a purists niche-inside-the-niche product for a couple hundred or thousand nerds, that is doomed to fail financialy.

With SP campaigns and FC3 paying for the high end modules, I am happy for every additional feature making this accessible and fun for more customers.

The minority of MP hardcore simmers can easily stay with the last Sim, that failed in the 90ies, if they don't like the hardcore realism options DCS World and its modules offers, right?

[shagrat]

That's not what he said, now is it?

 

 

 

He said that FC3 is a simulation, and a good one too.

 

 

 

 

 

That's not what he said, now is it?

 

 

 

You're also missing the point: adding an easy refuel option does not rob you of your high-fidelity simulation in any way. DCS can serve multiple roles at once — that's the beauty of it all — but the only one who's ever suggested that it should somehow become an arcade game is you. No-one actually wants that though, so your argument against that line of development is pretty nonsensical.

 

 

 

 

 

You realise, of course, that development resources go towards implementing realistic stuff, and that offering options to not engage those is not something that particularly adds to that load. Indeed, that's why we currently have highly unrealistic refuelling, and they've said that they're committing resources to make it more realistic.

 

 

 

You are making assumptions about what is and isn't difficult to create that do not seem particularly rooted in what ED has actually said about… well… anything. So this line of reasoning does not make much sense.

And the real stupidity in this argument is, that everything is already available in DCS. Simply deactivate pilot control (as if you were switching to a ground unit in CA, or to another plane in the flight) and activate the AI air refueling routine. After the AI puts the plane on the right wing hand over to Pilot Control, again.

No "development effort"... just use functions already in the Sim.

[derammo]

I actually read this whole thread, because it is reasonably civilized for the most part. It really shows the different types of customers that DCS has. Some toxic jerks were also represented :). But mostly it is a nice survey of how everyone feels about DCS (note you can't even say "the Game" without causing something.) So I am going to add my voice also, mostly for the "this is our community survey" purpose; I don't care that much about automated refueling.

 

I like to play (yes play) DCS in a very realistic mode, because anything less realistic just doesn't feel as good or as cool. If the flight model was simplified (like in other games I have played) then it would not feel as cool. Also, if weapons configuration and delivery were not as complicated as they are, I would not find them as interesting. So no, I don't want to go away and play some other game.

 

That said, I am not a former aviator and I don't care to learn manual start procedures either. That is only because they aren't interesting or fun to me. But I enjoy going online and cooperating with a bunch of others to do certain multi player missions (usually 4YA stuff) and sometimes I would benefit from being able to AAR. I have tried for a few hours but haven't had any success so far, so I typically just fling my plane onto a carrier or airbase (using no pattern whatsoever) and then sit there frustrated while it simulates the time taken for refueling (even though it magically lets me do it anywhere on the airbase or ship.) I pull off the runway so that I am not blocking anyone, of course, but I never taxi to parking or anything, because again that isn't fun to me. Because for some reason it is considered important to have this act take a realistic amount of time, I go for coffee (or the opposite) while the ground refueling is happening. For customers like me, it would be better if you could AAR automatically, even removing the time taken for the actual refueling so I don't have to sit there during my play time watching fuel flow. If this easy mode existed and was allowed in MP, I would use it, because I would not need to fly all the way back to a base or carrier just to get fuel (which again isn't fun or interesting to me.) So I would vote for this feature. I bet there are a bunch of other players like me who probably don't speak up as much because of the reaction it gets on this forum. That said, I also spent (just pulled that data) $717.31 on DCS licenses so far, because I really like this game and will stay with it forever. So yeah, I want my vote to count also, without getting a bunch of hate.

 

Some other types of players don't want ED to spend dev time on this sort of thing, and that's a valid opinion to have. We should all be able to respond to someone's feature request with "spend time on this, please" or "don't spend time on this, please" without dumping on people or telling others that their fun is wrong. Thanks to the others in this thread who patiently try to make this point. I am not saying anything new here, just trying to represent :)

Edited May 17, 2019 by derammo

[Eaglewings]

I actually read this whole thread, because it is reasonably civilized for the most part. It really shows the different types of customers that DCS has. Some toxic jerks were also represented :). But mostly it is a nice survey of how everyone feels about DCS (note you can't even say "the Game" without causing something.) So I am going to add my voice also, mostly for the "this is our community survey" purpose; I don't care that much about automated refueling.

 

I like to play (yes play) DCS in a very realistic mode, because anything less realistic just doesn't feel as good or as cool. If the flight model was simplified (like in other games I have played) then it would not feel as cool. Also, if weapons configuration and delivery were not as complicated as they are, I would not find them as interesting. So no, I don't want to go away and play some other game.

 

That said, I am not a former aviator and I don't care to learn manual start procedures either. That is only because they aren't interesting or fun to me. But I enjoy going online and cooperating with a bunch of others to do certain multi player missions (usually 4YA stuff) and sometimes I would benefit from being able to AAR. I have tried for a few hours but haven't had any success so far, so I typically just fling my plane onto a carrier or airbase (using no pattern whatsoever) and then sit there frustrated while it simulates the time taken for refueling (even though it magically lets me do it anywhere on the airbase or ship.) I pull off the runway so that I am not blocking anyone, of course, but I never taxi to parking or anything, because again that isn't fun to me. Because for some reason it is considered important to have this act take a realistic amount of time, I go for coffee (or the opposite) while the ground refueling is happening. For customers like me, it would be better if you could AAR automatically, even removing the time taken for the actual refueling so I don't have to sit there during my play time watching fuel flow. If this easy mode existed and was allowed in MP, I would use it, because I would not need to fly all the way back to a base or carrier just to get fuel (which again isn't fun or interesting to me.) So I would vote for this feature. I bet there are a bunch of other players like me who probably don't speak up as much because of the reaction it gets on this forum. That said, I also spent (just pulled that data) $717.31 on DCS licenses so far, because I really like this game and will stay with it forever. So yeah, I want my vote to count also, without getting a bunch of hate.

 

Some other types of players don't want ED to spend dev time on this sort of thing, and that's a valid opinion to have. We should all be able to respond to someone's feature request with "spend time on this, please" or "don't spend time on this, please" without dumping on people or telling others that their fun is wrong. Thanks to the others in this thread who patiently try to make this point. I am not saying anything new here, just trying to represent :)

Agree

 

I have come to realize that a lot of factors come to play in successful AAR in dcs. Major amongst these factors is hotas control which is different for everyone and when not working well can ruin aar no matter how hard you may try or watch YouTube tutorials.

 

I have tried all manner of tweaking on my hotas but still find it hard to hold a more than 1 minute on the drogue which most times is due to pilot induced oscillation. However with autopilot set to Balt hold, AAR is easy and a blast on a Tanker moving on a straight course.

 

For those like me who would like this sim to be as realistic as possible, it would not hurt me if I can set my AAR mission to realistic and for someone who either do not have the time to go through this seemingly frustrating process to have the option to tune down the realism a little bit so as to accomplish the objectives in a mission.

 

Just like engine ramp startup process, someone can choose to use the Autostart-up option or do it manually.

 

I can relate to fellows finding aar frustrating. It really could be. Most times I get away with the autopilot set to get full session of aar.

[shagrat]

(...)

For those like me who would like this sim to be as realistic as possible, it would not hurt me if I can set my AAR mission to realistic and for someone who either do not have the time to go through this seemingly frustrating process to have the option to tune down the realism a little bit so as to accomplish the objectives in a mission.

 

Just like engine ramp startup process, someone can choose to use the Autostart-up option or do it manually.

(...)

...and that's basically the whole point. As with all the other options we already have, it would add to the overall experience while not taking away anything from the rest, who prefer maximum difficulty.

That is what DCS World was always about.

May be with MAC we can get "achievement stickers" that can be proudly presented with a player online profile, like: ”I mastered manual AAR in the -add plane here-" to not take away the sense of achievement and superiority from the hardcore players?

[Larkis]

First let me say, i can AAR with Tomcat and with Hornet. So now i put also my 2 cents on it:

 

AAR has one major problem. You dont know how to do it, until you could do it.

I see a lot of videos about AAR for Hornet and for Tomcat. And all of them has 2 parts which are most impossible for an beginner.

 

1. Hold your vision on the tanker, not the basket.

 

2. Select a point of reference on the tanker and hold the plane there.

 

And thats the deal braker. I use a VR headset. I can move my head everytime. Sometimes forward, sometimes backward, sometimes left, sometimes right. I dont have that 100% perfect centered view. So all that "put the right end of the 5° ladder on the tank part of the wing"-crap is pure bullshit to me.

 

 

I understand the point behind it. When i know where the plane must be, i can easy get there. But to find that reference, i must successfull connect to the tanker before.

 

 

 

Chicken/Egg Problem. You dont know how to do it, until you got it. And from this point you get a picture how to do it and get bether every time. But to reach that first successfull connection is incredebly hard.

 

 

So insteat of implementing an auto/easy mode, just copy that:

On the tomcat with STRG+Enter, i got on the right side the glideslope marker. That helps me the first times to enter the glideslope in a good way. Now im more experienced, i have the "feeling" for it and i never look on it anymore.

 

 

Why not include the same for AAR? A Box with a plane marker. As long as the plane is in the box, you are able to refuel. That gives new pilots the experience "where must my plane be to connect" but he still need to go in the correct space himself.

 

That close the experience-gap but dont reduce realism.

 

 

 

 

Also i dont have a problem with the term "realism" in DCS. "realism" depends alot on the human factor and the hardware. Is TrackIR realism? Move the head on 200° in 0.3 Seconds to look behind in a WW2 Plane? I cant do that with VR without killing myself. Where is "realism" here? Qhat about peoplse without headtracking? "realism"?

 

What about monitors? The size and resolution of monitors is very important for spotting a target visually. "Realism"?

What about maintenance and costs? I can fire 6 Phoenix, on a bird 150nm away, and throw 2 sparros and 2 sidewinders on it. Ordonance with a value of severel million dollar. Then i fly the to tanker, tank, while i dumping fuel until the tanker is dry, crash my plane into the tower of the carrier... and just spawn again with a new plane, new ordonance and full of fuel. Where is "realism?"

 

 

DCS is a very good in simulating a plan until the last detail. But it is also a lot arcade and gamey around it.

When was the last time you plan your missions about 3-4 hours, according everything, then you present it to your virtual CAG, and try it again until he is satisfied. And ONLY THEN you spend another hour with preflight checks until you could go airborne.

And when was the last time you was 4 hours on an Alert5 on the flightdeck while nothing happens?

Sure you could do that. But you also just jump into a mission and have fun.

That was it. Now hate me :)

[CoBlue]

My 2c on AAR. When I had my x52pro I could never AAR. Tried all crazy kind of curves, but it was impossible. So I know the frustration.:music_whistling:

Then I got the x56 & the 1:st try I could AAR....so yeah for me it was hardware related.

Then I got TMWH & it's gimbal feels the same as x56. The T.16000M has the same gimbal as TMWH. So with those 3 joysticks of which 2 are reasonably priced you should be able to AAR.

I use app. 15 curves (pitch/roll) F18/14, M2K, Su-33, A10C, so experiment with curves to the point where you can do very precise movements.

 

For customers like me, it would be better if you could AAR automatically, even removing the time taken for the actual refueling so I don't have to sit there during my play time watching fuel flow. If this easy mode existed and was allowed in MP, I would use it, because I would not need to fly all the way back to a base or carrier just to get fuel (which again isn't fun or interesting to me.) So I would vote for this feature..

You already have that option "unlimited fuel" & "unlimited ammo" & even "time accelerate" (in SP) if you want to save extra time & don't want to "fly all the way back to a base or carrier just to get fuel". Now there's an obvious reason no big MP server's are using those futures. But you could always start your own & see how that goes ;).

 

First let me say, i can AAR with Tomcat and with Hornet. So now i put also my 2 cents on it:

AAR has one major problem. You dont know how to do it, until you could do it. I see a lot of videos about AAR for Hornet and for Tomcat. And all of them has 2 parts which are most impossible for an beginner.

 

1. Hold your vision on the tanker, not the basket.

 

2. Select a point of reference on the tanker and hold the plane there.

I & many others use a different technique.

 

 

1. Always look at the basket, back & forth between basket & probe, stabilize closure rate & drive it in.

The way I see it. It's almost like parking a car in a small space, you look close in at the corners & obstacles.

 

2. Fly formation with the refueling-pod, put it on the upper center of the Hud.

 

I remember one RL fighter-pilot who said that there are as many techniques for AAR as there are pilots, everybody does it a little bit differently :smilewink:.

Edited May 19, 2019 by CoBlue

[derammo]

You already have that option "unlimited fuel" & "unlimited ammo" & even "time accelerate" (in SP) if you want to save extra time & don't want to "fly all the way back to a base or carrier just to get fuel". Now there's an obvious reason no big MP server's are using those futures. But you could always start your own & see how that goes ;).

 

I wasn't asking what you think I should want. But thanks for taking the time to type it out.

[kaoqumba]

There are many players in DCS World. Everyone's will and ideas are different. Some people like absolute authenticity, some people like partial authenticity, and some people like entertainment mode. Develop a simple refueling mode, or press the shortcut button for automatic refueling mode. In fact, it does not affect the experience of the game. Use it if you like! If you don't want to, don't use it! A game with multiple difficult choices can satisfy everyone to the greatest extent.

[Tom Kazansky]

ok, let's pretend the option for an easier AAR is a benefit for the game. I don't need it btw, but I remember the times with a bad joystick and a small monitor and lower framerates. All of these issues made AAR almost impossible.

 

 

Can we focus on how an "easy" AAR mode should look like?

 

 

1.) should it be easier to catch the basket/boom?

1.a) larger hit box

1.b) larger basket :music_whistling:

1.c) automatic steering/throttle within a close range of the normal basket/boom

1.d) a steering support (reduced sensibility of (wrong) stick and throttle inputs)

 

 

 

2.) shoud it be easier to hold the basket/boom?

2.a) automatic steering/throttle til disconnect via some input (e.g. throttle to idle)

2.b) steering support (reduced sensibility of (wrong) stick and throttle inputs

2.c) higher rate of fuel flow (I don't like that)

2.d) make the connection "tighter" like some sort of towing rope (could end in funny videos)

 

 

3.) just klick and refuel close to the tanker (I guess this would be the worst solution)

 

 

4.) <space for more suggestions>

 

 

what do you think? is there a method that doesn't bother pro simers in a too unbearable way?

[delevero]

Ask if someone can make a mod where all you have to do is fly near the tanker and use the radio menu to refuel 100%.

( example turn this feature on in the main menu ).

 

( or a script that can be inserted into a mission that allow you to use the the radio menu for easy refuel... but technical speaking... why not just select unlimited fuel problem solved the plane will just be a bit more heavy ).

[Tom Kazansky]

unlimited fuel is a no go for me. takes out too many good reasons to play a combat sim.

 

 

and: we have this option already. no(!) server uses it for good reasons.