Real F/A-18 Pilot Tries DCS: F/A-18 - Part TWO

[SonofEil]

All this can I fly it talk reminds me of this...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-tale-of-when-a-marine-mechanic-stole-an-a-4-skyhawk-1745015819/amp

 

I was a 20 year old instrument rated private pilot, working towards my multi-engine and commercial, at the same time I was an A-10A mechanic. I was crew chief and engine-run qualified on that plane and was absolutely sure that given the chance I could successfully fly it. Still am, honestly. The one thing I don’t possess that that Marine did is a massive set of brass balls. I’m glad it worked out ok for him.

But yeah, the zero-real-world-hours sim guys that think they can just hop in a real F-18 now? You’re out of your damn minds. There is no. friggin. way.

Edited November 27, 2018 by SonofEil

[Magic Zach]

I just doesn't appear possible for just the sensations of real flight to overwhelm someone so that it's nearly impossible to even basically control the aircraft.

It wouldn't be safe (oh Holy God no haha), but there's no way it is absolutely impossible, so it iiiisss possible. With experience in the sim, one knows what function is behind a specific switch or control. With the Hornet's fly by wire, when starting takeoff roll, and if the aircraft is trimmed (as taught and learned in the sim), the bird will practically take off on its own. Once off the ground, the sim-pilot-in-a-real-Hornet has 30,000ft to consider his next move (which will resort back to time in the simulator) as the plane climbs on its own, level, even if it takes the sim pilot a moment to remember to raise the flaps and gear.

You all act as if as soon as someone sits down in that seat, POOF he forgets everything, and wouldn't know what switch does what. What the what?

Edited November 27, 2018 by Magic Zach

[hansangb]

I was a 20 year old instrument rated private pilot, working towards my multi-engine and commercial, at the same time I was an A-10A mechanic. I was crew chief and engine-run qualified on that plane and was absolutely sure that given the chance I could successfully fly it. Still am, honestly. The one thing I don’t possess that that Marine did is a massive set of brass balls. I’m glad it worked out ok for him.

But yeah, the zero-real-world-hours sim guys that think they can just hop in a real F-18 now? You’re out of your damn minds. There is no. friggin. way.

 

But to his point, if you just gave him the stick in the air, he could probably bank, turn, etc. And I'm *sure* he'd be better than someone who has no concept of how to "fly" Even in DCS, when you first start out, you yaw back and forth as you over-correct. Then you learn not to do that.

 

But again, that's not really "flying" the plane.

 

But be honest, how many of you, while flying commercial, *THOUGHT* about hearing the words "is there a pilot on board?" And "sorta/kinda" wished no one would stand up. So you could say "well, if *NO ONE* is a pilot, I'm better choice at helping..." :D Be honest. :pilotfly::lol:

[David OC]

But to his point, if you just gave him the stick in the air, he could probably bank, turn, etc. And I'm *sure* he'd be better than someone who has no concept of how to "fly" Even in DCS, when you first start out, you yaw back and forth as you over-correct. Then you learn not to do that.

 

But again, that's not really "flying" the plane.

 

But be honest, how many of you, while flying commercial, *THOUGHT* about hearing the words "is there a pilot on board?" And "sorta/kinda" wished no one would stand up. So you could say "well, if *NO ONE* is a pilot, I'm better choice at helping..." :D Be honest. :pilotfly::lol:

Yep, Here hold my beer, I've got this...:D

 

I've got quite a few hours on in the PMDG 737, So basically a pro...:music_whistling:

[StandingCow]

Thing is, in the sim you can get away with being unfamiliar with the aircraft and there are no repercussions (see Mover going nuts trying to keep formation). So you can do dumb stuff and nothing bad happens.

 

If one of us tried to fly the real thing we could do some real damage to the airframe or black ourselves out doing something dumb. And in that case there are real repercussions.

 

I would trust mover over anyone else here on if we could fly the real thing or not.

[Tinkickef]

I just doesn't appear possible for just the sensations of real flight to overwhelm someone so that it's nearly impossible to even basically control the aircraft.

It wouldn't be safe (oh Holy God no haha), but there's no way it is absolutely impossible, so it iiiisss possible. With experience in the sim, one knows what function is behind a specific switch or control. With the Hornet's fly by wire, when starting takeoff roll, and if the aircraft is trimmed (as taught and learned in the sim), the bird will practically take off on its own. Once off the ground, the sim-pilot-in-a-real-Hornet has 30,000ft to consider his next move (which will resort back to time in the simulator) as the plane climbs on its own, level, even if it takes the sim pilot a moment to remember to raise the flaps and gear.

You all act as if as soon as someone sits down in that seat, POOF he forgets everything, and wouldn't know what switch does what. What the what?

 

 

You appear to have no concept of just how busy an aircraft cockpit can get. It is not steering the aircraft, that should be for the most part instinctive, it is the other stuff.

 

I often felt like a one armed paper hanger. I have not flown a Cessna since 1996 and I can almost guarantee if you sat beside me, I would quickly and efficiently take you to the scene of a crash.

[Черный Дракул]

on if we could fly the real thing or not.

Fly? Hell yes: it flies itself. Pilot the damn thing? Not so much...

[Skwinty]

Here's another story. At least he was a qualified pilot, just not on this type.

 

http://www.historicracer.com/aviation/accidental-fighter-pilot/

[metzger]

Flying real hornet after just dcs :D I imagine one will get a heart attack during the acceleration on takeoff roll if manage to get it that far :)

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

[VirusAM]

i think that someone already used to flight, having maybe a private pilot license...could manage to takeoff, follow a flight plan and land, but nothing more i am afraid.

Someone that never sat in a cockpit, and has no experience of all the wobbling, the noise, the smell, will be probably scared by all of that just during the takeoff run....

[Weta43]

Yeah, nah.

 

I flew MS Flight Sim and X Plane for 15 years, and the first time I flew in a 2 seat Extra 300 and Pitts S2A, I felt like a fish completely out of water. Heck, I felt like that even on my 5th time.

 

That's because no sim, with even the most powerful graphics setup and VR, can come close to recreating the limbic system experience, and thus your reactions to the aircraft's movements would be nothing like they are on the sim. This would be true in Cessna, let alone in a uber high performance fighter jet.

 

It's like if you'd never driven a motor vehicle before, I don't care how great a car/truck simulator you might have used, you're got going to be able drive one in real life unassisted the first time.

 

At BEST you could startup and taxi at low speeds. Takeoff and land, forget about it....even with minimal g loads and flying like a grandma.

 

Back to topic, I think we all enjoy such comparison testimonials from real life pilots because they validate our simulated experience. And no doubt DCS is extremely high fidelity ('study' sim level). But a simulation inexorably bounded to the audio-visual media, no more.

 

 

I don't know …

I suspect it would vary from person to person.

 

I'm not a pilot, but I've done both of these:

In both the pilot took off handed over the stick and I flew out to the aerobatics area, then they would perform the exercise & pass you the stick to repeat it.

In the Pitts we were pulling 4G, not sure about the Victa.

After we'd finished the pitts pilot did some other aerobatics (finished by climbed then flicked it into a spin to lose altitude) then landed, the other pilot let me fly back to the airport, fly the downwind leg, turn into the approach leg & practice some stick for speed, throttle for altitude on short finals. At maybe 150 feet I asked were they going to take the stick & they said if I wanted, and regrettably I said yes..

 

But it was all very like DCS I thought - if you leave aside how uncomfortable unexpected G are (but you get used to it very quickly).

 

Even the flick into a spin and several rotations was just - fun :)

[Woody01]

In a twist the other way 'what does a sim pilot think of the real thing'. I was fortunate enough to go for a fly in a P51D 30NA about 9 years ago. At the time I was heavily involved in IL2 1946. In that sim my favourite plane was the P51D 30NA, so I thought it would be a very interesting incite into how accurate the sim was and how natural it all felt, and bear in mind this is IL2 1946! Not DCS by a huge stretch (a very good air combat simulator though IMHO).

What I found was it was the most natural thing I had ever done. Everything was so familiar and all the numbers, settings and dials were exactly what I was expecting, I thought it was bang on to IL2 but just much better graphics, sound and feel. We were pulling up to 5.5G in the BFM part of the flight and it was not scary, not hard (though felt amazing!) and it all just felt like I was born to do it. Now no I did not fly it, but I didn't need to, its very intimate in the back of a P51, I could see all the dials and inputs and it all just matched what I was used to in the sim and what I was expecting for the most part. The only thing that caught me out was I wanted to see how easy it was to check our '6' under high G, it was easier than I thought it would be but what I didn't realise was I had given myself a horrendous neck sprain! It felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer on the side of my neck about 20 mins after the flight and it honestly bothered me for years. I would not have wanted to take that aircraft for a solo though (NZ2415), far to precious and I am not a pilot, but it showed me that if I was in my 20's and found myself in WW2 with a Mustang I had to go fly I honestly think yes I could have stepped up to the challenge. A far cry from an FA18 though but an interesting data point.

And look, both Weta43 and I are from New Zealand, must be something in the water...

Edited November 27, 2018 by Woody01

[greenmamba]

I did my type rating in 2015 ..... I was all pumped up and everything and I went to fly the real airplane for touch and goes. Well no matter all the drills I did in the simulator (Level D) once I was in the real airplane .... i was overwhelmed. The feeling, the noises, the speed at which everything went .... I then realized that the simulator is just good for procedures but due to human nature ... the stress I had in the real airplane had nothing to do with the one in the simulator and that makes the difference. And on top of it, when you only know the simulator you expect and look forward to reactions and even noises from your sim experience to guide you trough in the real one.

 

I think this is what he meant by the simmer not being able to fly it. Just my 2 cents

[macedk]

I found the the track clip is actually not more precise. In fact it's worse. Turn your head too far to the side that the track-clip is mounted on and you've lost signal. Your face blocks it. Nevermind the extra wire that gets tangled up in your headset wires and the poorly engineered clip itself that breaks after 6 month of use. It's a gimmick and it's garbage IMO.

 

Agree 100% :)

[macedk]

Trackir is something you get used to and need to setup probber.

 

Like a steering wheel with forcefeedback, it tries to mimic the hole thing trough a wheel, very far away from what a real car feels like, but learnable :)

[Nooch]

I flew MS Flight Sim and X Plane for 15 years, and the first time I flew in a 2 seat Extra 300 and Pitts S2A, I felt like a fish completely out of water. Heck, I felt like that even on my 5th time.

 

That's because no sim, with even the most powerful graphics setup and VR, can come close to recreating the limbic system experience, and thus your reactions to the aircraft's movements would be nothing like they are on the sim. This would be true in Cessna, let alone in a uber high performance fighter jet.

 

FSX is surely the worst "modern" flight sim that there is in terms of flight dynamics, by a long shot. I (re)tested it two years ago and man... it was bad. Although I agree with you on the whole, no flight sim is perfect but I must admit that DCS helped me a lot when flying for the first time. I've done both helo and prop plane (taildragger and trycicle gear) and the general feel of the aircraft remained exactly the same.

[Kev2go]

All this can I fly it talk reminds me of this...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-tale-of-when-a-marine-mechanic-stole-an-a-4-skyhawk-1745015819/amp

 

Read another story somewhat similar to that nature

 

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/mind-if-i-borrow-it-76518363/

[Tiramisu]

Since lots of people talked about the differences between TrackIR and real life: What are the view limits of real pilots compared to the TrackIR-limits? By default you cannot see more than 90° up in DCS. (You can increase this limit a bit, but not too much.)

 

Now seeing something 90° above you is not the same like looking up 90°, because the human field of view can look up by some addtional ~45°. So the upper limit for the TrackIR should be something like 90+45° =135° to allow properly looking up, which is important to keep track on your enemies in dogfights.

Dont you guys agree?

[Kenan]

Once you try VR, there is no going back to 2D screen. In VR, it feels like being inside the cockpit. It is a total game changer..flying is a lot easier as it is more intuitive (depth perception, 1:1 scale etc.)

 

 

As for turning your head around, you're only limited by how flexible your neck/upper body is..

[VirusAM]

Once you try VR, there is no going back to 2D screen. In VR, it feels like being inside the cockpit. It is a total game changer..flying is a lot easier as it is more intuitive (depth perception, 1:1 scale etc.)

 

 

As for turning your head around, you're only limited by how flexible your neck/upper body is..

 

 

 

actually i go back and forth from vr to 2d because i can’t accept low performance

[StandingCow]

Once you try VR, there is no going back to 2D screen. In VR, it feels like being inside the cockpit. It is a total game changer..flying is a lot easier as it is more intuitive (depth perception, 1:1 scale etc.)

 

 

As for turning your head around, you're only limited by how flexible your neck/upper body is..

 

 

For some folks maybe, VR resolution and SDE prevents some (like me) from going full VR, I mostly fly with track IR still. Hopefully when I replace my vive with a Pimax 5K things change...

[Mover]

There was a point where he says that if someone was to learn the Hornet in the sim, and then go fly the real thing, "probably not".

Topic starter: Honestly, I disagree. Some of us might not know the proper technique to hold Gs, and even more of us don't have the physique. But to just fly the Hornet, I probably could. And mostly because of how easy it is to fly, thanks to fly by wire. I scarcely rely on controller buttons, so I remember where the basic controls are. The only basic ones that might trip me up are the nose wheel steering gain and the paddle, because I do have those mapped, and I normally can't see them. I believe that if I was in a for real F/A-18C Lot 20 Hornet (for a reason that does not even begin to exist), from the ground at least, I could successfully manage to start, taxi, take off, fly, and roughly land it (not on the boat) purely off of experience in DCS. But that's it. Anything else, and I am sure to screw up, possibly fatally.

FC3, I won't even know how to start the things. Mi-8, I'll die. P-51, I will likely crash. BF-109, I will die. Spitfire, I'm definitely lawn fertilizer in that one! F-5E, I might work it out, maybe. Big maybe. Big maybe on the Ka-50 as well.

I don't have the Mirage, but if I had to fly the real counterpart of a DCS module, the Hornet would offer the best chance of survival.

 

The flight gear alone would be overwhelming to someone that's never sat in a jet.

 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you managed or went without it. You managed to figure out how to put the ladder down and then magically found a way to put the ladder back up after you got in. Or the plane captain was out there and decided to help.

 

You strap yourself in (with no training) and go through all the procedures as you've learned from DCS. You turn the battery switch on and fire up the APU. You get an APU fire light.

 

You have the aircraft.

 

There is a reason we have boldface do EP Sims, NATOPS checks, etc. It's not because the jet is hard to fly - it's because the jet is hard to fly when things are going wrong. And not even considering the minor things that go wrong (BLINs, BIT fails, hyd leaks, etc.)

 

My airline has a distance learning software course for the 737 that you use before you show up to ground school on day one. It has cockpit mockups that you can click around to help familiarize yourself with the aircraft and then early on in training, you use touch screens.

 

Going from touch screens and an iPad screen to real switches was eye opening and slightly overwhelming. It is worlds apart when you're actually sitting in the cockpit and you have to physically find switches and interface with systems.

 

Is it impossible for someone from DCS with zero seat time to be able to start, taxi, takeoff, and land a Hornet without morting themselves? No. Do I think there's a better than average chance they'd never make it out of the chocks? Absolutely.

 

DCS is as real as it gets in today's market. But it's still not real.

[wilbur81]

The flight gear alone would be overwhelming to someone that's never sat in a jet.

 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say you managed or went without it. You managed to figure out how to put the ladder down and then magically found a way to put the ladder back up after you got in. Or the plane captain was out there and decided to help.

 

You strap yourself in (with no training) and go through all the procedures as you've learned from DCS. You turn the battery switch on and fire up the APU. You get an APU fire light.

 

You have the aircraft.

 

There is a reason we have boldface do EP Sims, NATOPS checks, etc. It's not because the jet is hard to fly - it's because the jet is hard to fly when things are going wrong. And not even considering the minor things that go wrong (BLINs, BIT fails, hyd leaks, etc.)

 

My airline has a distance learning software course for the 737 that you use before you show up to ground school on day one. It has cockpit mockups that you can click around to help familiarize yourself with the aircraft and then early on in training, you use touch screens.

 

Going from touch screens and an iPad screen to real switches was eye opening and slightly overwhelming. It is worlds apart when you're actually sitting in the cockpit and you have to physically find switches and interface with systems.

 

Is it impossible for someone from DCS with zero seat time to be able to start, taxi, takeoff, and land a Hornet without morting themselves? No. Do I think there's a better than average chance they'd never make it out of the chocks? Absolutely.

 

DCS is as real as it gets in today's market. But it's still not real.

 

Very well said and thoughtful! :thumbup:

[rrohde]

DCS is as real as it gets in today's market.

 

I believe this is what everybody wanted to hear from a real F/A-18 driver who tested DCS. :thumbup:

 

@Mover - since you've shown that T-38 video, you should hop into the DCS F-5 next. ;)

[Jumbik]

I think it may be very similar to a theory how clutch in car works and then trying to use it in car on your own. ... except for all you who use automatic gears! :D