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Dogfight tips?


Saskuatch
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Hi guys, I got the F-5 some weeks back, and I took some time to learn how to fly it and now I'm testing the combat with it. I'm kinda new to DCS overall but not new to flight sims. I set up a mission with just intercepting a Mig-21 head on that is armed with just guns at 15,000 feet. I am able to kill it either with a sidewinder or guns shot on the head one pass no problem, but I struggle a lot after the merge if I choose not to kill it on the first pass.

 

 

 

If he goes up for an Immelmann I just go down get some distance, pull back and hit it with a sidewinder, I found that if I get 2+ miles of separation between the planes I can turn around fast enough to hit him with a missile. At closer ranges I can never seem to get behind the Mig or even get a good lag pursuit going, it feels like I can never catch up to it in a turn. I also can never get behind him if we get into a scissors, it always seems like the AI adjusts its speed too well and is always able to have the best position in a horizontal or vertical scissors. I don't know if its just cause the AI is broken or if I need to be doing other stuff with the F-5.

 

 

Any suggestions? I'm going to give multiplayer a shot soon too, kinda scared of stumbling into some F-15s, 18s, mirages, 27s etc. in the servers with my little F-5 haha.

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A.Is respond instantaneously to your stick inputs with no delay so it can pose somewhat of a problem, especially when their aircraft is very maneuvarable like the Mig-21. You just have to get used to their tactics and eventually you will be able to defeat them. But it's not easy, especially with the F-5, which is not the best dogfighter...

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Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

 

In terms of actual tips:

 

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

 

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

 

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

 

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

 

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.

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Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

 

In terms of actual tips:

 

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

 

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

 

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

 

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

 

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.

 

 

Excellent tips, thanks!

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Well, I just got off the cold war server, after getting blind sided by a 21 while flying at 20,000 over the mountains. I jumped on another one, contacted awacs, saw a 21 on my rwr first rather than my radar and then immediately made visual contact, while I was dropping the fuel tank I got a launch warning, got tone on launched one myself and went defensive immediately. Didn't get hit but I lost track of that one and not sure if I splashed it as I went for cover around the mountains.

 

 

Not the guns kill I'm looking for but exciting non the less.

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A.Is respond instantaneously to your stick inputs with no delay so it can pose somewhat of a problem, especially when their aircraft is very maneuvarable like the Mig-21. You just have to get used to their tactics and eventually you will be able to defeat them. But it's not easy, especially with the F-5, which is not the best dogfighter...

 

this isnt true at all. F5 IS a better dogfighter than the Mig21. This isnt just DCS expereince. Even IRL, the Soviets came to the conclusion based on thier Vietnamese F5E evaluation that this was superior to a Mig21 in a close in dogifght. The recommended strategy was to avoid extnded turnfights with F5's and to rely on energy advantage and overall superior Thurst to weight advantage. Forcing and F5 to go vertical would mean the Advantage in a fight went to the Mig

 

When you arent dealing with an AI super simplified FM itsa different story but if looking at the actuall FM as when flown bu Mig21 has worse characteristics for dogfighting tan the F5.

 

a) non existant rearwards visibility.

 

 

b) Small Delta Wings. Itl turn nicely at high speeds, but Bleed its speed quite fast, and if a pilot neglects to keep his eye on his Speed an AOA warnings, and alows the speed to anywhere get below 500 KM/H this thing stalls like rock if attempting to maneuver at said speeds, and recovering from stall in a mig is less forgiving than the F5.

 

 

This is what limits the migs true dogfight potential compared to the F5. In typical Horizontal fight, the F5 has the edge.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Jump on the cold war server, that usually descends into a Mig-21 vs F-5 airquake. It's a punishing way to learn but you'll learn a lot, very fast. Like Axelerator said - the AI physics model is simplified and it's not really a fair fight.

 

In terms of actual tips:

 

- The Mig is good at speed but get him into a slow turn fight and he'll have to extend or fall out of the sky.

 

- Never follow a Mig vertical, they have enormous power to weight.

 

- Switching to manual flap control and 0 degree flaps can buy you a bit of energy at the expense of lift if you get caught out.

 

- Stay away from applying pitch and roll simultaneously in a fight, it'll bleed energy REALLY fast. You can use a bit of rudder to induce roll while pitching if you need to.

 

Some random tips. A good thing might be to record a few dogfights of yours and post them here for critique. There are some seriously good dogfighters around here.

 

^

 

This

 

 

 

Build:

 

 

 

 

 

Windows 10 64 bit,

 

Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z370- E Motherboard, Intel Core i7 8700k ( Noctua NH14S cooler),Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 32gb ram (2666 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia Gtx 1080 8gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; WD 1TB HDD, Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD.

 

 

 

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It's not a problem to follow AI in the vertical. just make sure you have enough energy to do three loops with him (~400knots) and you can usually gun him down as he comes over the top on the second or third one. He will bleed his speed too. Works against all skill levels.

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The F-5 instant action dogfight over Nevada is good training against the AI F-14. I would hope that if you can beat the AI F-14, that you can beat the AI MiG-21. Even though AIM-9s are available to both sides in this mission, I don't use them. You start on the tail of the F-14, but he is far away and goes into a vertical climb. To beat him with guns, you have to close him and keep your energy up long enough to pull lead and wound/kill him. If you bleed too much speed before you wound him, he will slowly grind you down until he gets an AIM-9 or gun shot. The ability to keep the F-5 between 250 and 300 kts is critical to beating the F-14. When you have figured out how to do that well, you will have a decent chance against most opponents for the first 2 or 3 turns... then you are meat.

 

One trick that has almost always worked against DCS AI is horizontal scissors. Let the enemy get close behind you and scissor left/right... i.e. roll almost 90 degrees, pull hard, and as the enemy starts to overshoot, unload, roll 180, pull hard... repeat until the enemy is spit out in front of you. But the enemy (like the AI F-14) may pull into the vertical after overshooting, so you need to keep your energy up enough for a snapshot as the enemy climbs past you.


Edited by streakeagle

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Also, if you get the F5 up to about 600 kts, it can outturn most everything going slower without bleeding too much speed. Just be careful about the overshoot.

 

I was flying vs my buddy who was learning the su27, and he couldn't keep a sustained turn rate to match me, though he was flying a bit slower.

 

A lot of dogfighting comes down to speed. Speed is life.

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How do you keep the energy up in the f5? Seems like once youve gone below 300 the speed falls off fast and you have to dive to get your speed up. At certain altitudes you dont have the option. It does turn great but it looses energy very fast.

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How do you keep the energy up in the f5? Seems like once youve gone below 300 the speed falls off fast and you have to dive to get your speed up. At certain altitudes you dont have the option. It does turn great but it looses energy very fast.

 

Disable the auto-flaps, they bleed your energy very fast.

Without the auto-flaps you will also regain speed much faster, use them only if you end up somehow in a slow speed turning fight below 200kts (but try to avoid it as the others have pointed out).

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I have been playing around a lot lately with it and i realize it feels like the f-5 doesn't turn fast. If you do a turn at 350 and pull the stick enough where you don't bleed your speed to fast, it feels slow. but then look at the replay it isn't too bad. i think its hard to have a feeling of how tight the turn is. you want to pull the stick more to turn faster but it just drops your airspeed. Multiplayer definitely helps your confidence i was in a disadvantage scissors with a f18 and was able to keep alive for a few minutes until he got bored and flew off haha

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 2 years later...

I also use the AOA indexer there is a little "T" at the 3  o'clock position on the gauge if you keep your AOA at or below that line you should not bleed much or any energy.  Also if the aircraft is buffeting, you are pulling too hard.

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On 10/13/2018 at 5:18 PM, Kev2go said:

 

this isnt true at all. F5 IS a better dogfighter than the Mig21. This isnt just DCS expereince. Even IRL, the Soviets came to the conclusion based on thier Vietnamese F5E evaluation that this was superior to a Mig21 in a close in dogifght. The recommended strategy was to avoid extnded turnfights with F5's and to rely on energy advantage and overall superior Thurst to weight advantage. Forcing and F5 to go vertical would mean the Advantage in a fight went to the Mig

 

When you arent dealing with an AI super simplified FM itsa different story but if looking at the actuall FM as when flown bu Mig21 has worse characteristics for dogfighting tan the F5.

 

a) non existant rearwards visibility.

 

 

b) Small Delta Wings. Itl turn nicely at high speeds, but Bleed its speed quite fast, and if a pilot neglects to keep his eye on his Speed an AOA warnings, and alows the speed to anywhere get below 500 KM/H this thing stalls like rock if attempting to maneuver at said speeds, and recovering from stall in a mig is less forgiving than the F5.

 

 

This is what limits the migs true dogfight potential compared to the F5. In typical Horizontal fight, the F5 has the edge.

 

 

Also the MiG21 low speed flight model atm for human players is quite generous and has been for some time.

 

Anyway, tips for the F5 (apologies for overlap with existing tips but would like to emphasise them):

 

Speed is life, try to stay above 350 knots and ideally above 400 knots.

Turn gently, with the mild LERX like wing on the F5 and small engines it can bleed speed rapidly.

I generally leave flaps on auto during turning for best turn performance, but bringing the flaps in can be useful to help regain speed quicker.

The gun has a low rate of fire, so you need to practice getting a good track on the target

If using missiles, learn to uncage and lead to make them more likely to hit. Gar8 / aim9b is pretty trash but the aim9p and p5 are quite usable.


Edited by Sideburns
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I always find myself in a scissors no matter what I fly, and I used to be good at taking advantage of that situation in the F-5 by:

 

-using the flaps switch on the throttles: OFF/UP for maneuvering, or when I need to unload and gain speed, AUTO when slow and in the scissors

-turning with rudder only (or what seems like rudder only, I'm sure I'm doing some subconscious stick movement) when fighting slow

 

The rest is just managing energy.

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The very best PvP dogfighting advice I can give is to fly with a wingman.

 

While 1 v 1 BFM skills are an absolute priority skill to develop, you should emulate the Air Forces of the world and operate as part of a team.

 

As a solo player, once the enemy sees you, he can keep you occupied for a period of time long enough for help to arrive.

 

A coordinated 2 ship has a better defensive lookout and posture and is quite powerful on offense, often able to prosecute kills very quickly. 

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For me a real challenge is to go 1v1 with a F-5 on ACE skill level.   At this point I almost never beat him.  I go back and watch what the AI does on TAC-VIEW and the AI manages energy like ..... well an AI!

 

AI sucks at maneuvering low though

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