Sukhoi Su-17

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

Well, ED has almost fully run out of MODERN DOABLE aircrafts. So, it could either be their bigger focus is on WW2 series, western theater or they would be mostly expanding on just the DCS sim engine itself, adding features etc than new modules. Personally, not into DCS WW2 planes (I use the IL-2 series for that)  and I do not own any of those WW2 planes in DCS, except the freebee TF-51. I do, however, I do own all of the jet series minus the A-10. Also non on helos, need to learn to fly those.

 

Yeah, I'm just going off what I've heard, and I could well be misinterpreting, but ED just seems to go for the latest and greatest they can do, of course excluding WWII. The F-5E and F-86F are a few years older than the Hornet IIRC.

 

As for WWII, I'm interested, though I hardly use the warbirds I own, and I've almost never used them in combat. Mind you, playing on a 15.6" laptop with only a stick (though a very good one) might have something to do with that.

 

Expanding and improving the engine is never going to be a bad thing in my books, and I'm not going to complain if new content doesn't get added while they're doing it.

 

3 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

ED still has to UPDATE a lot of the OLDER AI 3D models that look odd from the old LOMAC series assets.

 

I absolutely agree, and as far as 3D work goes I wish this would be priority no.1.

 

Some even go as far back as Flanker 2.5 IIRC. My only beef right now is that ED has seemed to focus on completely new vehicles, leaving the old ones behind. I am definitely grateful for some completely new assets and DCS is better for them; but I'd rather them prioritise current assets over completely new ones.

 

For instance, we've had the old T-72B (obr. 1984 AFAIK) since BS2; instead of updating that, ED gave us a completely new tank; the T-72B3 obr. 2016. While I'm grateful for the latter, I would've preferred it if ED updated the existing T-72B model before doing the new T-72B3 model.

 

3 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

Century series aircrafts are aplenty and most of them has seen very good amount of combat (M.E nations). Su-17 series or the 7 would be a good addition, at least its got SECONDARY air to air ability (Not the Su-7), having cannons and self defence short range missiles and that is plus.

 

Absolutely; the century series (particularly the F-100D and F-104G) were very prolific and are a pretty iconic set of aircraft. Plus nostalgia from SF2.

 

Both of these aircraft should be a lot easier to develop; with avionics being no more complicated than the F-86F (of course apart from the RADAR; though Heatblur have done a pretty decent job at simulating clutter on their Tomcat, which I think they achieved by employing some form of raycasting technology).

 

But the Su-17 already fits basically perfectly alongside the F-5E and the earlier F-14A; just with an A/G focus. It's probably a good transition aircraft if you already own the MiG-21; as it's kinda a cross between a -21 and a -27.  

 

3 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

They've also stated Mig 27 is NOT planned.

 

Which, even though it's not at the top of my personal wishlist, is also a massive shame.

 

3 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

They also did state they've got no plans for a Vietnam map in the roadmap. So, pretty much, the Phantom is chucked from their plans and free for 3rd party to take.

 

Vietnam as a map might be pretty difficult to make but I don't know for certain. But I'm hoping a third party will pick up the Phantom quickly; wink wink Heatblur (though, they need to finish their current work first; it's been ages since the AI Draken, A-6E and Forrestal were unveiled; and for the former we hear almost nothing at all.

 

[Alpenwolf]

20 minutes ago, WinterH said:

According to a much more recent quote from Kate Perederko, it appears to be as good as cancelled unfortunately.

Simon Pearson, as far as I recall in the same interview you have quoted, said that century series are not in consideration at all too. It is clear ED has switched direction a few years ago to do all the most modern "crowd pleaser" that average customer will buy, and will sell more, unfortunately. Well at least we are finally getting the Hind sometime soonish...

 

Understood.

 

As to the argument to why ED "has switched direction" I doubt the F-4 wouldn't sell just as much as the F-18 or -16. Probably even more and especially due to its multicrew feature. Plus being iconic and all that.

[WinterH]

Well that was the exact reason they gave for killing it in favor of F-16...  I believe it was Wags saying that they believe F-16 will sell significantly more, but it's been 2-3 years now I guess, so I may be slightly off on who said what, but the gist was that F-4,Mi-24,and AH-1 were put on ice, and F-16 was given priority in development. We are finally getting the Mi-24, so I would like to hope same will happen for F-4E, but recent communication from ED, as well continued efforts to quickly release modern popular aircraft like AH-64 seems to hint otherwise. Well, at least AH-64 is something I'd be interested in, but at this rate I'd expect ED to sooner make things like Super Hornet, full fidelity F-15C etc before we see more 60s-80s modules.

But I can't see F-4 not selling great. It surely would sell pretty damn good. Yet, still, probably not as much as Meh-16 Boring Falcon everybody seems to love and bought despite the fiasco of a release it was . At least it led ED to taking releases more seriously though, so it wasn't a total loss even for anti-Meh-16 folks like myself I guess :P. 

[Dragon1-1]

4 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

Well, ED has almost fully run out of MODERN DOABLE aircrafts. So, it could either be their bigger focus is on WW2 series, western theater or they would be mostly expanding on just the DCS sim engine itself, adding features etc than new modules. 

Do note, judging from the latest newsletter, this is exactly what's happening. WWII still has some room to grow, and grow it does, what with the Mosquito and the Jug. There are also a lot of big improvements coming, but of modern "crowd pleasers", there's just about only the Apache. The MiG-29 is in vague planning stage, but no news on that so far. So we can conclude they did, in fact, run out of planes. That said, if they get Jesterski working on the Hind and then expand him on the Apache, it might open up some more two-seater projects like the F-111. 

 

I think that after MiG-29, the Su-25 is another good FF candidate from the Russian side. Its avionics are basically the same as the Hind's (barring the extremely simple laser designator and the INS), and it's a very solid ground pounder that's fairly common across the world. There's also the F-15C, if we keep repeating that it can, in fact, carry dumb bombs (even if this capability isn't normally used), it'll filter down to ED at some point.  

Edited January 14, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[jojyrocks]

52 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Expanding and improving the engine is never going to be a bad thing in my books, and I'm not going to complain if new content doesn't get added while they're doing it.

 

I absolutely agree, and as far as 3D work goes I wish this would be priority no.1.

 

Some even go as far back as Flanker 2.5 IIRC. My only beef right now is that ED has seemed to focus on completely new vehicles, leaving the old ones behind. I am definitely grateful for some completely new assets and DCS is better for them; but I'd rather them prioritise current assets over completely new ones.

 

For instance, we've had the old T-72B (obr. 1984 AFAIK) since BS2; instead of updating that, ED gave us a completely new tank; the T-72B3 obr. 2016. While I'm grateful for the latter, I would've preferred it if ED updated the existing T-72B model before doing the new T-72B3 model.

 

 

Absolutely; the century series (particularly the F-100D and F-104G) were very prolific and are a pretty iconic set of aircraft. Plus nostalgia from SF2.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the engine, I am not against it, but just noting that they have more on their plate. And it is important to optimize the engine plus extra features.

 

For AI 3D models: I do not know WHY ED has prioritized updating GROUND assets than air assets that we already have from LOMAC era (it looks strange flying with gimp/paint graphics old assets). I mean, we hardly see the details and the visual beauty of ground vehicles when doing missions from aircraft/helo platforms. So, I find it confusing as to why they do not seem to give importance to the AI 3D Plane assets which we already have and needs updating.  I am not saying ground assets don't' need updating, just the priority is something maybe I don't understand.

 

I am not asking for a full fidelity Su-30 ( It would be nice if we got it, though and it will get hot sales) but the least they could give us is an AI 3D model to ogle at. Seems to me most of the 3D work is outsourced and is an afterthought on priority. Its been a LONG time from LOMAC era.

 

The F-111 seems like complicated plane as is the Su-24 and those are originally made as deep strike or strategic bomber planes that may have some secretive ground pound complicated features and ground radar is not much interpreted in detail, plus some of its features could be omitted. Low chance of seeing F-111 and certainly not the Su-24.

 

 

I guess third party devs will have to pick up the century series. They already have lot on their plate. Each module take like ~ 4 years to develop. There is PLENTY of module options. There could also be politics involved as to who'd get the permission to model and whatnot.

 

 

 

[Northstar98]

19 minutes ago, jojyrocks said:

For AI 3D models: I do not know WHY ED has prioritized updating GROUND assets than air assets that we already have from LOMAC era (it looks strange flying with gimp/paint graphics old assets).

 

Meh ground vehicles aren't really updated as such (only ones that I can think of that has been an update rather than a completely new vehicle is the Roland ADS and the BM-27).

 

I think with aircraft its the workload that's the issue, but even so in recent years I think it's only the Su-34 that has received an update. Though a good number is planned on the newsletter.

 

Personally, I'd start off doing weapons up to the standard of EDs AMRAAMs and GBU-10/12/16/24 (i.e reasonably high poly and textures, animated control surfaces and rocket motor) as these should be the easiest; then update current aircraft (keep the variant the same, but update the 3D model, textures and hopefully even sounds); then update the ground vehicles (prioritising air defences, such as the SA-6 and SA-10) , then the ships, and then the static objects.

 

When picking completely new ground vehicles, start with those actually present for the timeframe and maps (here's where the Ariete is a semi-odd choice, yay something for Italy, but not something suitable for our current maps AFAIK). Personally, for new vehicles I'd start with air defence units; things like RADARs (we really lack EW/long range surveillance RADARs), completing the battery components of current air defence units (most SAMs have just the minimum required; launcher and FCR, maybe search RADAR(s) if lucky; we're missing things like operator cabins (particularly for the SA-2, SA-3 and upcoming(?) SA-5), transloaders/transporters, generators, IFF systems (like 1L22 Parol 4); it's only really Patriot and Rapier that's comprehensive (Rapier just lacks operators, Patriot is only lacking transporters/tractors).  

 

19 minutes ago, jojyrocks said:

I mean, we hardly see the details and the visual beauty of ground vehicles when doing missions from aircraft/helo platforms. So, I find it confusing as to why they do not seem to give importance to the AI 3D Plane assets which we already have and needs updating.  I am not saying ground assets don't' need updating, just the priority is something maybe I don't understand.

 

I'd definitely prioritise aircraft, as plenty of big-ticket ones have some of the oldest of models. One thing I don't get is that ED listed the Il-38 as something they plan for; the Il-38 is a maritime patrol aircraft, focusing on ASW; which is a largely non-existent concept in DCS, as submarines are in their absolute infancy.

 

With ground vehicles, you definitely notice the difference if your like playing CA directly (which I do), and watching the battle unfold with the F7 and F11 cameras.

 

19 minutes ago, jojyrocks said:

I am not asking for a full fidelity Su-30 ( It would be nice if we got it, though and it will get hot sales) but the least they could give us is an AI 3D model to ogle at. Seems to me most of the 3D work is outsourced and is an afterthought on priority. Its been a LONG time from LOMAC era.

 

Yeah, and some of these models aren't even LOMAC (after all our current Su-25T is LOMAC FC2 era AFAIK), some of these models date all the way back to Flanker 2/2.5, 2 decades ago.

 

19 minutes ago, jojyrocks said:

The F-111 seems like complicated plane as is the Su-24 and those are originally made as deep strike or strategic bomber planes that may have some secretive ground pound complicated features and ground radar is not much interpreted in detail, plus some of its features could be omitted. Low chance of seeing F-111 and certainly not the Su-24.

 

I'd rather not see features omitted. The F111 as a whole is about as complicated as the F-14A, they're pretty similar. Obviously the RADAR is probably going to demand the most work, but it shouldn't be out of scope or unfeasible. The main new feature would probably be an autopilot coupled TFR, allowing for automatic low and fast flying.

 

19 minutes ago, jojyrocks said:

I guess third party devs will have to pick up the century series. They already have lot on their plate. Each module take like ~ 4 years to develop. There is PLENTY of module options. There could also be politics involved as to who'd get the permission to model and whatnot.

 

I doubt it for the Century series, they're all aircraft from the 50s/60s long out of date and long out of service (last one was probably the Italian F-104S as well as Turkish and ROC Starfighters).

 

And modern aircraft seem to take a lot longer, the F-16C was unveiled in the 2018 and Beyond Video (in the same way as the Apache) in late 2018, came to OB in 2019 and to this day is fairly far away from being feature complete.  

[FlankerKiller]

18 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Yeah, I'd go for them all. Unfortunately ED seems pretty adverse to doing older aircraft; they've stated that they have no interest in the century series and now have basically abandoned the Phantom.

I know right. God I wish that the Bellsimtec team, or something like it could stand back up. Hell even if ED could just have a department to cover the classic. They could still work with ED when they needed to pool resources. I hope the Mi-24 makes a huge profit. Then maybe they would reconsider they're stance on cold war aircraft. 

[Fangs Out]

While I agree that BST should've been its own team, the F86F and F-5E are kinda mix of different varients, (F-5E3 has CM and RWR only found on certain export varients of Swiss F-5Es) . But they also made some of the most recognizable aircraft from the cold war (Mi-8,UH-1,F-5E and F-86 ). I also agree that if BST continued with the F-4E we would have an iconic and very capable Cold war in DCS. But as of right now, M3/ Leatherneck are the only ones i trust to do the Fitter , Fittingly  (bad pun).

[Alpenwolf]

I used to like Belsimtek's work a lot. And they're not gone by the way. They're simply part of ED now and I'm sure they're the ones working on the Mi-24. As to the F-4, well, I don't know whether it was ED who told them to put it down, postpone it or some other issues. We'll see.

[jojyrocks]

13 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I know right. God I wish that the Bellsimtec team, or something like it could stand back up. Hell even if ED could just have a department to cover the classic. They could still work with ED when they needed to pool resources. I hope the Mi-24 makes a huge profit. Then maybe they would reconsider they're stance on cold war aircraft. 

 

 

We're running out of modern aircrafts anyway (They did say Super Hornets are a no-go for them)...and there is a limit to it and third parties too. They can now mostly have option of century series planes and there are still more combat experience rich century series planes that can be developed. Considering the sales aspect as well, most would certainly get sales.

 

About the Leatherneck simulation surprise plane...it could very well be Su-7 or Su-17...this is just my guess. It'll all take a while since they do have to iron out the Mig 21 that we currently have.

 

ED has at present shelved century series as they maybe could be just going for more focus on DCS engine and its extra features aspect, they have a LOT on the plate as it is and they did say they need to rework a lot on the comms and EW plus AI aspect and several others...

 

Do not know what is coming after Longbow other than the base version of the Mig 29.

[WinterH]

5 hours ago, jojyrocks said:

It'll all take a while since they do have to iron out the Mig 21 that we currently have.

On top of that, they have two upcoming modules, F4U, their first warbird, and F-8J. So even if they really plan a Su-17, it would be quite some ways off from now.

 

There is this: 

But from the looks, at least so far, the intention is the make a good looking AI mod. EDIT: No, looks like SVKSniper wants to mae a cockpit too!

 

There was also this:

And this one actually aims at becoming a full on module, but the last update was about a year ago, and it was 3d modeling. As with many such module creation attempts, this does not inspire a lot of confidence yet sadly.

 

A Su-17M3 or M4 would be very welcome indeed. My favorite time period in DCS, a decent full fidelity red striker, any red aircraft at all actually, and it's like an even faster Su-25, what's not to like?  But it doesn't look like we are likely to see it anytime soon.

Edited January 15, 2021 by WinterH

[FlankerKiller]

If any team decides to make this a reality I would be a minut one buy for me. I fell in love with this thing back during the LMOMAC days. Being an aviation geek I started looking into it, and the more I learned the more I wanted it. I love the mid to late Soviet era aircraft, and this one is just cool as hell. 

[Alpenwolf]

On 1/16/2021 at 2:39 PM, FlankerKiller said:

... I love the mid to late Soviet era aircraft, and this one is just cool as hell. 

 

+1

 

Especially mid era

[WinterH]

I'd prefer late versions of middle period birds by far. 80s is where it's at in my opinion. Stuff like MiG-27K, Su-17M3 maybe M4, Su-24M, MiG-25PD/BM/RBT etc.

[FlankerKiller]

Absolutely, and those birds are still in use around the world. So they could still fit against the modern birds we have. It's an unfair fight for sure. 

But yeah, early 80's would be awsome. Still have some EW, still have missels, but you still have to fly them. 

[Alpenwolf]

On 6/6/2021 at 12:39 AM, LoneS said:

Can't wait any more

Word on the street is that the Fitter is coming

 

... and the word has been confirmed!

[Zpigman]

8 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

... and the word has been confirmed!

Where? The only confirmed project I have seen is a user made mod from SVKSniper.

[Alpenwolf]

44 minutes ago, Zpigman said:

Where? The only confirmed project I have seen is a user made mod from SVKSniper.

 

[Zpigman]

10 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

Ah yeah I have seen this, and while it defiantly looks like it could be I am not holding my breath too much. The positioning of the Merry Christmas sign perfectly hides the wing in such a way that it looks like it could be a delta aircraft as well. Until confirmed outright not holding breath.

[Alpenwolf]

13 hours ago, Zpigman said:

Ah yeah I have seen this, and while it defiantly looks like it could be I am not holding my breath too much. The positioning of the Merry Christmas sign perfectly hides the wing in such a way that it looks like it could be a delta aircraft as well. Until confirmed outright not holding breath.

 

And there is that, you're right.

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

And there is that, you're right.

 

One other thing to consider. This studio is basically a continuation of Leatherneck which broke away from Heatblur (or rather the other way around). They are very slow to produce modules. So even if the Su-17 is on their TODO list, it's going to be a loooooong way off, considering that after they release the Corsair (something that is taking them a huge amount of time) their next module is supposed to be the F-8 Crusader. 

[Alpenwolf]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

One other thing to consider. This studio is basically a continuation of Leatherneck which broke away from Heatblur (or rather the other way around). They are very slow to produce modules. So even if the Su-17 is on their TODO list, it's going to be a loooooong way off, considering that after they release the Corsair (something that is taking them a huge amount of time) their next module is supposed to be the F-8 Crusader. 

 

Once upon a time there was Leatherneck. Now, it's Heatblur Simulations and Magnitude 3 LLC. Both are great teams!

 

I'm not sure whether they're slow or not, but I know they're damn good developers and their modules are top notch! I could wait

[Kazansky222]

So when you gonna form that 3rd party and bring us Su-17 Alpenwolf?