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Can you get a fuel leak if you are hit?


JohnZ622
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I was playing the Eastern Friendship campaign mission 1. Ran out of fuel extremely quickly while doing the first bit of trying to provide CAS for Badger 1. Could it be due to gunfire hitting my internal or external fuel tanks? I thought they are self-healing.

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Many new or modern fighters do not have self sealing tanks. The only one aircraft with sealing tanks I can think off is the A-10.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

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When doing the second mission of that campaign, I got sprayed by AAA fire, and lost my centerline tank and got my internal tanks punctured. Managed to nurse it to about a mile and a half from the air base, where upon getting up to 8.1 AoA my tanks emptied due to the location of the leak, turned into a very heavy glider and promptly bailed out.


Edited by lbellouny
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Yes. This has happened to me without ext tanks. I got hit making a guns run and my gauge just started dropping like crazy. Didn't see any fuel leaking though.

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Yep. I got hit by a short-range IR missile the other day and was leaking fuel like crazy after not dying. Had to make an emergency landing.

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Recently took AAA fire and started to hemorrhage fuel. Quick glance at the fuel management page and I mostly guessed that is was a left side tank. Shut down the left engine and fuel consumption returned to normal. Was even able to get it back onto the deck. I don’t remember clearly if I actually had solid indications of a left engine problem, or if I just didn’t want to deal with losing the right AMAD and have to go through the cross connect procedure.

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Many new or modern fighters do not have self sealing tanks. The only one aircraft with sealing tanks I can think off is the A-10.

That seems like a big vulnerability. I would've thought most aircraft get self-healing tanks in case they take AA fire.

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That seems like a big vulnerability. I would've thought most aircraft get self-healing tanks in case they take AA fire.

 

It would increase weight and lower fuel capacity. F-15/16/18/22/35 do not have self sealing tanks. I don't think any of the century series did. We haven't use self sealant tanks since WWII AFAIK. What aircraft carry self sealing tanks?

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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It depends on the aircraft and the role as to what tanks are self sealing and what tanks are not. Most of the modern fighters have their Feed tanks self sealing but their mains can only seal very small holes, while all (at least western) rotor craft in military service have fully self sealing tanks.

 

And it's not an issue of 'weight' it's an issue of Capacity. When you put the self sealing bladders in the walls are significantly thicker and you loose a lot of capacity to it, designers have to make a choice between the tank being able to take multiple large rounds or being able to carry a lot of fuel, in the case of most fighters if they take hits that are causing major fuel loss from any point other then their wings (and even there) chances are they are going to be having more issues then just 'I'm running out of fuel'.

 

That being said all the External tanks except the A-10's are self sealing. The A-10C's fuel tanks are all self sealing, most of the feed tanks as mentioned on most modern jets are also self sealing and the wing tanks again can take minor 'holes' and seal but not lets put multiple 10mm - 20mm shells through them.

 

On the hornet if you look where most of the tanks are, honestly if you take hits in those area's again as said above fuel loss really is the least of your worries.

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I know for a fact non of F-16 nor F-117 fuel tanks are self sealing. Not the external and not the "feed tanks".

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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I know for a fact non of F-16 nor F-117 fuel tanks are self sealing. Not the external and not the "feed tanks".

 

Weird because I thought MIL-DTL-28422 (rated for Crash-worthiness) requires the tanks be able to seal.. It was one of the reasons why the A-10 wasn't allowed to take it's fuel tank into combat during Iraq and later Afghan because it was never rated under either 27422 or 5578 and was considered a leak and 'explosion' risk.

 

one of the issues with the older type of sealing on modern tanks is there pressurised which also makes the older sealing methods a load harder as the pressure in the tanks pop's the seals, it's why you have foam fill (detonation presentation) and the hoses themselves self seal, but hey i'll be the first to admit I don't work on the jets, only write code occasionally to simulate parts of them and only relayed what I was told at one stage by ground crew that most of the feeds were still capable of some form of self sealing on most of the modern birds and by "feed tanks" i mean the tank cells that immediately feed into the engines, on the Hornet Tank Cell 2 and 3 (left and right feed) on the F111 was cell 4 and 3, PC-9A it's the Aerobatic fuel tank. Those are the jets/birds I know fairly well.

 

and lets face it as I said most times if your leaking fuel it's the least of your problems (and also why inhibit switches exist).

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I PM =Panther=, she would know better than me

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Some definite improvements in damage modeling in the last Wednesday patch. I was in a scrap with a 29 and took some rounds. Punctured a tank or two, lost my DDI's, an elevator, and the FCS among other blinky lights and tones. I was still able to high alpha into a stall (dancing on the rudder) and hit him with a 9X.

Prior to the patch the damage modeling mostly consisted of dead and crash or explode and dead.

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I PM =Panther=, she would know better than me

 

F-16 has a bladder cell located directly behind the cockpit, it is not self sealing. The cell does not have any foam. The reservoirs (known as the Feeds) are integral tanks and are not self sealing nor do they contain a bladder.

 

F-15 has a mixture of integral, bladder and self sealing fuel cells. The feeds are the self sealing cells. The only tanks that are filled completely with foam are the non-self sealing cells. The wings are the integral tanks, and have a few pieces of foam. The self sealing cells have a small amount of foam at the very top.

 

A-10 has self-sealing cells, and are completely filled with foam.

 

None of the external fuel tanks have self-sealing abilities, and no foam.

 

None of the lines within any USAF fighter fuel tanks have self sealing abilities either.

 

F-22 and F-35 have no bladder or self sealing cells, they are all integral tanks.


Edited by =Panther=

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I was playing the Eastern Friendship campaign mission 1. Ran out of fuel extremely quickly while doing the first bit of trying to provide CAS for Badger 1. Could it be due to gunfire hitting my internal or external fuel tanks? I thought they are self-healing.

 

I had the exact same thing happen to me twice on the same mission. Taking any ground fire seems to result in a rapid loss of fuel. Not sure if it's a bit overdone or not... If they're self sealing like Dooley says it might be worth looking into.

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Legacy F-18 mech here. Tanks one and four are bladder cells and the only foam that surrounds them is small strips to protect the urethane bag from friction of the cavity walls. Feed tanks (two and three) are also bladder cells in and are partially self sealing. As with the transfer tanks the only foam surrounding them is small strips for cushion. About the lower third of each cell has self sealing material. The wing tanks are surrounded by explosion resistant foam but are not self sealing. External tanks are made of fiberglass and also do not seal themselves, if damaged they crack open.

 

As stated earlier, if the tanks are pierced by any kind of attack fire you have much bigger issues at hand. Major avionic components would likely be damaged.


Edited by RobertFriday
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Thanks =Panther=

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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As stated earlier, if the tanks are pierced by any kind of attack fire you have much bigger issues at hand. Major avionic components would likely be damaged.

 

Well I've taken hits without damaging avionics and been leaking fuel like crazy a couple of times in DCS lately.

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I think you guys are missing a key thing, just because it is seal sealing doesn't mean it will seal and prevent a leak. A single puncture maybe, but when blown through with a lot of bullets or a shrapnel, it's going to still leak.

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  • 1 month later...

Eventually, and with the new global damage model upgrade, the leaks need to be visible with proper visuals if it is so in reality, so that you would see multiple leaks, and a few of them sealing, a few of them shrinking, some remaining.

 

There should be some kind of basic fluid physics involved, if you flip over it would stop flowing, that's a must (maybe it is so already?)

 

If fuel get's in contact with hot exhaust it should ignite into a fireball, make smoke at the back, but ofcourse some distance back because the mixture with air has to be right ofcourse, maybe it's would happen only in certain and specific situations, need some references, plus ofcourse weather and wind, but even if it's raining, you'd still probably get something but with more stuttery action, but less chance, let's say it would take more heat which (which means fuel leak spray would need to be closer to engine) would just evaporate the waterdrops instantly.

 

The sure thing is to make it dynamic, the fuel leak would have it's combustability modelled, so you avoid all the scripted stuff like "if leak is 0.5 distance from center of engine make smoke and fireball".

 

This is more like a fuel-leak-burn-simulator of it self heh ... but it would look really great, ofcourse it doesn't have to go that deep at first (or ever), like actual weather temperature/humidity affecting it, specially if it's like a minor factor.

 

And if anyone thinks this is some side thing ... just think about rain on the canopy, fuel leaks affect gameplay in a lot of ways, but ofcourse rain on canopy is something that happens in real life a lot, and it's ofcourse understandable that fuel leaks and epecially fireballs don't happen much and it would need some real life data/tests etc ... now something could be made with a model in windtunnel if the temperatures of the exhaust at several distances and at several RPM percentages are known (from the engine manufacturer docs), now that I think about it, there's a lot of air movement, not wind, that fuel leak is an instant spray right? It wouldn't take that much distance to get the mixture ?

 

However, the other thing is, it wouldn't be like a big fireball, the amount of fuel wouldn't be that big normally, and that would burn pretty quick, I just used the term fireball, whatever. And taking it to the extreme is at low speed, if the circumstances are right, that fire could possibly follow up with the leak and then get the are around it burning, which should make more smoke, possibly start doing actual damage, if the new damage model has some kind of flame damage thing and flame spreading modelled that be just great.

 

The twists this would possibly bring are countless, with all those factors into account, you'd have to, watch and pay attention, ofcourse F2 view is a cheat, but these visuals wouldn't be just for fun, if this low-speed fuel-burn into my wing thing would be a thing then imagine you'd have to keep flying at high speed, losing fuel, trying ... that be some really interesting gameplay moments right there, especially in multiplayer, it may have a huge effect on the outcome of tournaments, first you'd lose fuel properly and it will force you to ditch or RTB so no more shooting, secondly it would provide great second chance opportunity where the most important thing is promoted, the player's skill, so one would be able with all the realism to take advantage and do various things to minimize fuel loss, roll plane over, or to the side, keep speed in check, or if there's wings on fire, you'd go really fast to try to kill the flames before they reach hydros or something but going faster might just make it burn more (that might have to be researched, what kind of speed is actually needed to kill the fire instead of fueling it)

 

Just think about long-haul plays, big campagins, various matches, where scores might count, you would lose points if you go down, you'd loose less points if you managed to eject, you'd loose even less if your team performed successful SAR (search and rescue) so your pilot didn't die, but you still lost an aircraft and have to go back to base for another one ... these long haul missions, fuel leak here and there it all adds up and you might have 30% of matches swing the other way around, so I think it's pretty important fuel stuff gets equal amount of attention from the new damage model as the rest.

 

Well see, if you have a leak near engine (from wing) you get some non-damaging fireball action, but if you go too low and at the specific AOA you can get that fuel leak to burn the wing, I didn't thought of that earlier until I didn't start talkin about flames on wings, well that means you're kinda forced to keep low speed and your wing would keep burning now, albeit slower, but unless you can use speed to kill the fire, you'd have to fly slower and that would be a big limit on what you can do next, the point is, it's a big gameplay twist and affects outcomes ... you can do is some support from back, no front line confrontation, or you can go RTB, you could try just letting that fuel tank to burn it self out, flying hidden along the forrest line, or you can go straight RTB and in some kind of tournament where deaths would matter it would be a big deal for example.


Edited by Worrazen

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