From VR back to TrackIR

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

VR ain't a display. You can't just plug it in and get gaming, you need to game to support VR. And for the moment there are only a handful worth of the games to play in VR outside the simulator genre like DCS World and couple driving simulators.

 

If you want to know how the gameplay gets affected by VR, it is like this:

 

 

 

And those are almost the only ones that are pure FPS shooters ported well to the VR. In the Payday 2 you can play with non-VR players and it is actually fun. You do have limitations there that they don't have like free motion is not so snappy as with keyboard, but you have boosts like being able operate something with one hand and shoot with a another or shoot at two different targets same time.

 

One of the games that most would like to see are ARMA 3, as it already works great with TrackIR, but in VR how do you do the crouching (in payday2 you NEED to crouch if you want to do so, and you do that a lot!) as pressing a button doesn't feel right.

 

Playing ARMA 2 with TrackIR shows how well it works with TrackIR for immersion, but your accuracy and reaction times will suffer because you are moving head with TrackIR (Alt+mouse) and with mouse you move your body/gun.

 

PUBG would be just terrible experience in VR, it is already terrible on the 2D but in VR it would be just death.

Insurgency could work more like ARMA 2, but still require a lot of reworking for mechanics.

 

 

The VR really works great only for the games that are purely designed for it, like example Robo Recall:

 

 

But the sad thing is that all famous FPS shooters really can't be done for VR so easily because you can't withstand gaming hour or two in those, like you can in sitting a virtual seat in cockpit.

Then there are the physical requirements like after sometime you get tired to wave hands, crouch, turn around and take side steps etc.

 

That is why VR has not gained than about 0.5-1% of the all STEAM players and it actually is "dying" because gamers do not want to be physically exercised, the "WOW factor" goes down very quickly.

 

And that is what puts a flight simulators and driving simulators to be the only main target audience as you anyways sit in the chair, you move your hands just little if at all, have them rested on the controllers and it is natural thing to look around with head and you get other benefits just "fitting in".

 

On the moment it becomes to "moving" freely, VR in FPS becomes downer. Why teleportation was the key choice, and if your game story and world doesn't support teleportation (like in the Robo Recall the whole story is around it) then it is a immersion breaker.

 

Even a Doom VFR and Fallout 4 VR etc are bad in VR.

 

 

Regarding shooters, I think Onward or Superhot are the best ones.

 

Back to flightsims topics, I guess DCS is very tricky to setup for proper VR experience. X-Plane on the other hand is almost straightforward, both performance-wise and UI usage.

You need to spend a lot of time fiddling with DCS graphic options, then 3rd party apps such SteamVR or Oculus Tray Tool, and then all the GPU control panel options.

And sadly many people jump the gun and call it quits.

Besides, as other pointed, we have been playing videogames in a 2D flat screen for ages, so I can understand not everyone embracing the challenge.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

Right, so instead of fumbling for your mouse, you fumble for your touch controller?

Much better than being in a multimillion dollar cockpit with real side consoles, ejection seat, huge projector... and staring at your carpet or window while entering CDU coordinates by hand.

Or doing a loop and look upward and watching your ceiling rather the ground, even that ground is not FULLHD 4K bs

Or checking your "own" six.

[BigDuke6ixx]

Much better than being in a multimillion dollar cockpit with real side consoles, ejection seat, huge projector... and staring at your carpet or window while entering CDU coordinates by hand.

Or doing a loop and look upward and watching your ceiling rather the ground, even that ground is not FULLHD 4K bs

Or checking your "own" six.

 

I've got a Rift. What is better (in VR) about fumbling for your tough over reaching for a trackpad, for example?

[Quadg]

I use my mouse in VR and don't really think about it.

its to the left of my throttle and I use it with my left hand (im a righty)

 

trying to hit buttons with a laser pointer touch controller felt more immersion breaking than the mouse. trying to use some buttons requires some weird arm positioning.

but in the end its what you get used too that works. its not immersion breaking when you don't have to think about it.

 

 

How was it the first time you switched from Trackir to VR, guys?

QuadG, could you please share some YouTube videos with DCS?

Thank you

 

the horror aspects of VR are quite good. getting up close and personal with monsters is kinda nasty..

crashing for the first time does make you scream in terror. and will make certain people violently motion sick.

large heights can reduce people to quivering tears. (I hurt my sides laughing at a friend freaking out at height)

 

and sometimes you just cry in wonder.

that all wears off, except my vertigo. like in real life, heights get me every time. and it does not matter that I know im standing in my den...

so that friend got a good laugh at me in return..

 

my channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ2yUnbJFMnfyCIJmQAnxSQ/videos

but 2d youtube really does not do it justice :)

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

I've got a Rift. What is better (in VR) about fumbling for your tough over reaching for a trackpad, for example?

My point is fumbling is better than 2D. Im sorry if I misunderstood your statement.

Comparing DCS and X-Plane, I find messing with cockpit controls is better in the latter than in DCS(but the joystick/yoke handling).

[Fri13]

Right, so instead of fumbling for your mouse, you fumble for your touch controller?

It is totally different thing to use touch controller than a mouse or trackpad.

 

You literally grab the controller like an mouse, but then all similarity ends.

 

And one day we have the gloves or hands tracking and you get better as you don't need to grab anything.

 

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[Fri13]

I've got a Rift. What is better (in VR) about fumbling for your tough over reaching for a trackpad, for example?

Just keep the controller in your lap, it doesn't fall and you grab it like a stick or throttle. As easy. But all similarity ends there with the mouse on what you lay hand on.

 

The immersion is far better as with touch controller you start to experience the cockpit layout designs like how it is difficult or time consuming to reach some buttons with other hand, while you would need to use another.

 

Like when you fly a helicopter, you will learn that reaching a top right switch with your left hand is far more difficult than with right... That is holding the cyclic...

 

In fighters you can't press button on your right CDU with a left hand.

 

That is why the "laser pointer" range should be limited to 5-10cm instead being "infinity" long. So you must get your hands close to the controls instead try to point things from other side of cockpit...

 

They just seriously need to fix the right/left click to buttons instead using a trigger and palm twist angle.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

Edited August 20, 2018 by Fri13

[BigDuke6ixx]

Just keep the controller in your lap, it doesn't fall and you grab it like a stick or throttle. As easy. But all similarity ends there with the mouse on what you lay hand on.

 

The immersion is far better as with touch controller you start to experience the cockpit layout designs like how it is difficult or time consuming to reach some buttons with other hand, while you would need to use another.

 

Like when you fly a helicopter, you will learn that reaching a top right switch with your left hand is far more difficult than with right... That is holding the cyclic...

 

In fighters you can't press button on your right CDU with a left hand.

 

That is why the "laser pointer" range should be limited to 5-10cm instead being "infinity" long. So you must get your hands close to the controls instead try to point things from other side of cockpit...

 

They just seriously need to fix the right/left click to buttons instead using a trigger and palm twist angle.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

All sounds really cumbersome to me. If right click is a problem, why not use VoiceAttack to press it?

[Fri13]

All sounds really cumbersome to me. If right click is a problem, why not use VoiceAttack to press it?

Voice commands AIN'T answer/realistic/fast etc.

 

It only works for an radio shortcuts or if you would be flying large aircraft where copilot does it after command, like "gear down"

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[BigDuke6ixx]

Voice commands AIN'T answer/realistic/fast etc.

 

.

 

But fumbling with a touch controller is? LOL!

[Fri13]

But fumbling with a touch controller is? LOL!

You are just making hyperbole about "fumbling". It is as fast as grabbing a stick...

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[BigDuke6ixx]

You are just making hyperbole about "fumbling". It is as fast as grabbing a stick...

 

.

 

Touch is definitely the most useless method, imo.

[USA_Recon]

It was amazing at first, the 3d, head was swimming a bit though, the sensation had my stomach feel like dropped.

 

Now it just feels normal.

 

The biggest struggle is ability to check six especially in BFM, its rough on the neck at times (good reason to keep them ahead of me lol).

 

That said, I tried one day, after being a TIR user for like 10 years, to go back to TIR, and I literally couldn't even fly.

 

Seeing stuff is a double edged sword, I can see things further and better in 2D, but when merged and such, the 3D makes it easier to see .

 

I've tried to lean against the cockpit, put my elbow down and then laugh at myself, it really tricks the brain

[A2597]

and with PointCTRL, now we essentially have hands. Removing one more boundry between reality and VR. :D

[flameoutme]

Your decision is a good one for you. I've made other kinds of analogous decisions over the years, and I just promise myself that I will check back from time to time to see if whatever the new technology is for me.. is for me.

 

Things are moving quite fast on VR, check back in a year.

 

BTW, I love my valve index. But that's just me. And I totally respect your choice.

 

See ya in the skies.

[streakeagle]

While I still enjoy flying in 2D with a giant 4K screen with the impressive graphics quality and steady 60 fps, I am far better at flying helos, flying formation, air-to-air refueling, dogfighting/situational awareness, and carrier landings in VR. The 1:1 head tracking and wide field of view in both the vertical and horizontal give me a much better sense of where I am looking versus where the nose of the aircraft is and the relative motion.

 

My big problem with VR was visual spotting range and DCS patched that up a while back so now I can see a little blurry dot at decent distances (further than icons on multiplayer servers with icons). It still needs much higher resolution so that I can see what I am spotting and judge its aspect at reasonable ranges.

 

I am so used to VR, that I have difficulty maintaining a visual track in a rolling dogfight with TrackIR. I become disoriented. It wouldn't be a problem if I went back to TrackIR exclusively, but I am not doing that, so I generally reserve TrackIR for training, sightseeing, and recording video/taking screenshots. I do find it more relaxing to use TrackIR when drinking/eating while flying. I don't have to reach out blindly for my glass/bottle/food and I don't have to tilt my head back to make up for the VR headset blocking me from titling the glass/bottle any further.

[Headwarp]

I gave my TrackIR away after getting my Odyssey.

 

There are a couple sims I refuse to fly, despite kind of wanting to, because they don't have VR support. like.. resolution be darned, I can't go back to a flat image on a screen vs looking to my right/left and seeing a life sized wing and being surrounded by a lifesized cockpit.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

and with PointCTRL, now we essentially have hands. Removing one more boundry between reality and VR. :D

Can´t wait to my unit being delivered.

[streakeagle]

[rant on]I have elected to wait for PointCTRL v2.0. Perhaps a bad decision since Miles has run into some technical issues and stays busy keeping up with orders for the old version.

 

I tried the LeapMotion hand tracking system. The demo application is awesome, but something gets lost in translation when it is imported into SteamVR, where it is not nearly as accurate and also costs too much performance. If LeapMotion hand tracking was natively supported in DCS rather than having to be modified to pretend to be a Vive controller, I bet it would work better and cost lest cpu overhead.

 

I also tried using the Touch controllers from the Rift S. They are far more precise than the LeapMotion, but still were cumbersome compared to simply grabbing a mouse. While the LeapMotion caused more problems, I still had inadvertent control operations while struggling to reach and operate some controls, i.e. while trying to turn a knob or flip a switch, I might hit a canopy jettison lever or some other critical control that would ruin my flight.

 

So, based on what everyone else has said and demonstrated in videos, I am sure pointCTRL will finally provide a solution superior to a mouse for operating controls while in VR.

 

But whether I fly VR or flat panel, I still want an operational sim pit. At a minimum, I want all the physical switches working and in the correct geometrical positions to match the in-game cockpit (which may not exactly match the real-world cockpit). But I also want working gauges and MFDs. The problem becomes whether I want to simplify a panel (i.e. flatten it) to support using a single monitor to provide all gauges and MFDs or stick with proper geometry and either have no active displays or deal with driving multiple screens. I favor Mustang's F/A-18 Hornet kit, which goes with the flattened main panel to use the single monitor, but I would really like proper geometry that mimics the in-game cockpit, which would work much better with VR.

 

But the question is moot for the moment. I need to get through some real-life issues before I have to make a decision and move forward on multiple sim-pit projects.[/rant off]

 

Back on topic: for those who have the means, there is no reason not to keep both flat panel TrackIR and VR. Why not have the best of both worlds even if you mainly use/prefer one? I currently use a 49 inch 4K TV for my flat panel. It looks great, but I would like to go as large as I can afford. At least 65 inches. When I am ready to move forward on cockpit building, I will figure out what size I can afford. Maybe by then 8K will be the standard and most high end gpus will be able to handle 8K really well.

[hansangb]

 

--snippage--

 

Back on topic: for those who have the means, there is no reason not to keep both flat panel TrackIR and VR. Why not have the best of both worlds even if you mainly use/prefer one? I currently use a 49 inch 4K TV for my flat panel. It looks great, but I would like to go as large as I can afford. At least 65 inches. When I am ready to move forward on cockpit building, I will figure out what size I can afford. Maybe by then 8K will be the standard and most high end gpus will be able to handle 8K really well.

 

 

For me, it's not about the cost of it. After VR, 2D is so underwhelming that there is no joy in it. I get that people love beautiful 4K (or soon 8K) rendering of it. But I'd rather "experience" it. No one is right, so long as you enjoy one or the other (or both), it's winner winner chicken dinner.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

[rant on]I have elected to wait for PointCTRL v2.0. Perhaps a bad decision since Miles has run into some technical issues and stays busy keeping up with orders for the old version.

 

I tried the LeapMotion hand tracking system. The demo application is awesome, but something gets lost in translation when it is imported into SteamVR, where it is not nearly as accurate and also costs too much performance. If LeapMotion hand tracking was natively supported in DCS rather than having to be modified to pretend to be a Vive controller, I bet it would work better and cost lest cpu overhead.

 

I also tried using the Touch controllers from the Rift S. They are far more precise than the LeapMotion, but still were cumbersome compared to simply grabbing a mouse. While the LeapMotion caused more problems, I still had inadvertent control operations while struggling to reach and operate some controls, i.e. while trying to turn a knob or flip a switch, I might hit a canopy jettison lever or some other critical control that would ruin my flight.

 

So, based on what everyone else has said and demonstrated in videos, I am sure pointCTRL will finally provide a solution superior to a mouse for operating controls while in VR.

 

But whether I fly VR or flat panel, I still want an operational sim pit. At a minimum, I want all the physical switches working and in the correct geometrical positions to match the in-game cockpit (which may not exactly match the real-world cockpit). But I also want working gauges and MFDs. The problem becomes whether I want to simplify a panel (i.e. flatten it) to support using a single monitor to provide all gauges and MFDs or stick with proper geometry and either have no active displays or deal with driving multiple screens. I favor Mustang's F/A-18 Hornet kit, which goes with the flattened main panel to use the single monitor, but I would really like proper geometry that mimics the in-game cockpit, which would work much better with VR.

 

But the question is moot for the moment. I need to get through some real-life issues before I have to make a decision and move forward on multiple sim-pit projects.[/rant off]

 

Back on topic: for those who have the means, there is no reason not to keep both flat panel TrackIR and VR. Why not have the best of both worlds even if you mainly use/prefer one? I currently use a 49 inch 4K TV for my flat panel. It looks great, but I would like to go as large as I can afford. At least 65 inches. When I am ready to move forward on cockpit building, I will figure out what size I can afford. Maybe by then 8K will be the standard and most high end gpus will be able to handle 8K really well.

With most DCS users sharing their flight time among many modules, building an exclusive module cockpit, for me, doesn´t make sense anymore.

[dburne]

For me, it's not about the cost of it. After VR, 2D is so underwhelming that there is no joy in it. I get that people love beautiful 4K (or soon 8K) rendering of it. But I'd rather "experience" it. No one is right, so long as you enjoy one or the other (or both), it's winner winner chicken dinner.

 

Same for me as well.

I held on to my Track IR5, however I have not used it again since the day I got my first VR headset - Jan 15 2017.

[imacken]

I use TrackIR and VR about equally. I use TrackIR if I’m learning a module and I can refer to documentation easily, or if there are circumstances where I don’t want to be shut off from my environment. Or, if I want to drink from a mug of coffee or wine glass! A beer bottle is easy in VR, the others not so much!

[zcaa0g]

I can easily flip between either with no issues or beefs about it as they both have their merits but to each their own. Pretty much the same reasons as imacken above.

[Harlikwin]

Yeah same thing. When my first reverb died, I had the old CV1 or the track ir to fall back on. Despite the absolute terrible image quality of the CV1, it won over a monitor and track IR. No contest.