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Improved stability and dedicated server - Discussion


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You are missing the point, DCS cant be compared to any other game, sure it would be nice to have this feature or that, but based on what DCS and what it takes to get decent performance differ from anyone else's game/simulation. Some of the stuff going on under the hood simple is way more complex than these other games being pointed to. All that has to be considered.

 

Sith, this kind of response is why people on Hoggit and elsewhere don't think you're being that helpful in this thread.

 

Kocrachon said some very specific and straightforward things for exception handling and being able to cope with mission lua script failures.

These are most definitely things that can be tackled.

 

Handwaving those good suggestions for dev focus by going "DCS has PFM's in modules, and is just more complex overall" isn't an acceptable response to a technical suggestion and simply makes it look that just like the rest of us, you don't know what's going on under the hood on a technical level.

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I guess multiplayer is where the real loyal and serious players are. As I see it, single player is where people learn and practice, but no one plays it forever. They either slowly stop playing or move on to multiplayer (as with all games, I guess...). I guess now with both 2.5 and the Hornet out, ED will finally have the chance to tune the multiplayer side of the game. It will do wonders for the player base.

 

Is trying to do 'everything for everybody under every circumstance in a perpetually generating environment' a good idea? No.

 

I understand what you're saying, but that's really not the case with these servers in DCS. If you try one of these awesome dynamic servers, you'll see that they are not trying to everything for everyone, it's really far from it actually. Despite all the effort they might be doing under the hood, it's all to deliver a minimalistic "capture the enemy base" type of mission, that retains the war state between server restarts. No factories, no HQs, no power plants, no planning, no ground war, no strategic strikes, no nothing, just attack the enemy airfield. The catch is that you, the player, communicate via SRS, Discord, etc. to coordinate or plan your actions with other players and that's the real interesting part of it. So that's currently the thing with DCS multiplayer: too much processing power and resources in doing effectively too little.

 

If you ask my opinion based on what I've seen so far, I think ED should do a native military type of dinamic mission editor with planning, etc, to replace the current editor, so that servers wouldn't have to add so much customized script code in order to fill their own needs (remember, this isn't "Altis Life" or "DayZ"). If you look at these amazing popular servers, you can see the common denominator, this is what things tend to evolve to, so why not implement the common denominator natively and let servers adjust minor things to suit their particular needs?

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I guess multiplayer is where the real loyal and serious players are. As I see it, single player is where people learn and practice, but no one plays it forever.

 

I dont think that is true at all. There are still players that have no interest in MP, same as there are some that have no interest in SP.

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Right, well, you could be right and I could be wrong. I play a lot of Arma and DCS both, because of the simulation blah blah. They're my cup of tea. I have had a lot of bad experiences, dealing with people overloading their stuff with useless crap. For example when browsing servers I see mod lists with 30, 40 (OR MORE???!!!) that's always a bad sign lol 'Dynamic this'or 'Live that' usually translates to disaster where I take a 60-70% FPS hit. I also avoid servers catering to randos for all the obvious 'welcome to the internet' reasons.

 

A lot of things are possible, and there are people who pull it off on occasion, but I have observed most people just doing dumb stuff and then everybody wants to rant 'fix ur game devs' @@

 

Anyway, I'll shove off now. For the record I do support dedi servers (duh, that's a nobrainer) and any and all improvements available, potential, or imagined. It is never my intention to argue against progress. And believe it or not, not my intention (usually) to piss people off or antagonise them ;) Good to you all *tips fedora*

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I care about multiplayer but I'll never say single player is dead. Nothing beats a well put together campaign that is immersive. I'm hoping with the MP changes we could get some dynamic stuff happening and proper waypoints for sorties and such implemented. Several times I go online and just fly around looking at the map wondering where the hell I should be going.

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I dont think that is true at all. There are still players that have no interest in MP, same as there are some that have no interest in SP.

 

There is obviously a split player base, both sides are significant. It's just those that enjoy multiplayer co-operation are getting a bum deal as it stands

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I have had a lot of bad experiences, dealing with people overloading their stuff with useless crap. For example when browsing servers I see mod lists with 30, 40 (OR MORE???!!!) that's always a bad sign lol 'Dynamic this'or 'Live that' usually translates to disaster where I take a 60-70% FPS hit.

 

Yes, yes, but remember you're talking about Arma. DCS server hosts don't do that (as far as I can see in my limited experience). Have a go in DCS server browser, try the public servers and you will see what I'm talking about. Don't let your Arma experience put you off from DCS multiplayer, it's amazing.

 

 

I care about multiplayer but I'll never say single player is dead. Nothing beats a well put together campaign that is immersive.

 

Defenityely not dead, all I'm saying is I'm almost sure (I don't have any numbers) that there is a much higher turnover in singleplayer - with people learning the game, doing campaigns, free flights, etc. and then slowly abandoning the game (how many times can you do free flights and play the same storylined campaign without getting tired of them?) - than with multiplayers, where experienced players who know everything there is to know about the game hang and never get tired because it's never the same. Maybe most of the money income is due to singleplayer (higher turnover?) but the core loyal player base I guess is in multuiplayer.

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There is obviously a split player base, both sides are significant. It's just those that enjoy multiplayer co-operation are getting a bum deal as it stands

 

It might seem like that, but its not the intent, the single player issues are easier to address, and took benefits from the core fixes much faster than MP does, its just how it works. Now that the core is settling down, MP will get some much needed love. Of course it all takes time, and we all want it now, but it will get some love, it has been behind the scenes for months now. They are getting close to start laying out the path to a brighter MP future.

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I just want to toss my hat in the ring as another person that really enjoys MP, but often plays SP because the MP stability is not where it needs to be.

 

Even small missions with friends almost always end in a server crash within the first hour. SP is the only way I can guarantee a successful RTB. I would play a lot more DCS (and likely get a few more modules) if MP was more stable.

 

Thank you for looking into it, ED!

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I just want to toss my hat in the ring as another person that really enjoys MP, but often plays SP because the MP stability is not where it needs to be.

 

Even small missions with friends almost always end in a server crash within the first hour. SP is the only way I can guarantee a successful RTB. I would play a lot more DCS (and likely get a few more modules) if MP was more stable.

 

Thank you for looking into it, ED!

 

Pretty much this; DCS is really unstable to play online, even on small group coop stuff. As much as I'd love to see the big servers work well, I'd be a pretty happy camper if i could play with my friends.

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Im an older, flight sim enthusiast that rediscovered flight sims because of VR and I've read this whole thread .

 

For me the most interesting takeaway from this thread, and the official responses, ( also combined with about 3 years experience with DCS) is that what we are really talking about is less about the tech challenges being discussed here for multiplayer support and more about what the user base demands.

 

DCS has created a great sand box for a professional flight model with multiplayer functionality. The user base is pushing the product into a dynamic, multiplayer environment with some smart and creative ways to work around existing bottlenecks. Whether everyone likes this or not that is where the energy is.

 

The future is clear, PFM on larger servers with dynamic, third party content / mission creators.

 

(Reread that sentence above.)

 

If ED can truly support this direction in the way the community wants (we know there's tech limits but theres also community expertise, - real experts not armchair devs) that can help workaround limits and move this sim beyond what we know today.

 

To sum up, if ED can enhance MP servers, the user base will "Buy'em and fly 'em", if not, there's only so many grey-haired single players spending their retirement money on the next module and that can't be a road to growth.

 

It's a good problem to have. Nothing quite like creating a successful product and then have the user base begin to move and drive expectations. My hope is that ED rises to the occasion.

 

I've never been more excited to see the update coming this Friday.

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ED,

 

 

Don't let all the griping get you down. You know what they say, it is always the 10-20% that scream the loudest. You all have been doing a great job.

 

 

Sure there are a few issues in multiplayer, I know you all are working on. Strange though as long as I stay off of the the overly scripted servers, they magically disappear. I only get a strange issue once in a while then.

 

People need to remember when you add thousands upon thousands of lines of scripting on top of a program when you have no real insight into the code it is bound to cause numerous issues. It seems you are expected to design your product based upon what 2 or 3 server admins want you to do with it. Then they hit you with the ego that their way is always right and yours is always wrong.

 

Don't let it get you down and keep up the great work.

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Yes, yes, but remember you're talking about Arma. DCS server hosts don't do that (as far as I can see in my limited experience). Have a go in DCS server browser, try the public servers and you will see what I'm talking about. Don't let your Arma experience put you off from DCS multiplayer, it's amazing.

 

 

 

 

Defenityely not dead, all I'm saying is I'm almost sure (I don't have any numbers) that there is a much higher turnover in singleplayer - with people learning the game, doing campaigns, free flights, etc. and then slowly abandoning the game (how many times can you do free flights and play the same storylined campaign without getting tired of them?) - than with multiplayers, where experienced players who know everything there is to know about the game hang and never get tired because it's never the same. Maybe most of the money income is due to singleplayer (higher turnover?) but the core loyal player base I guess is in multuiplayer.

You are possibly right about the SP turn over. But I've had dcs for longer than 8 years and just recently tried getting online. Maiy because the last time I attempted I didn't know much and I sucked. People were not as friendly but with hoggit server and finding people on Reddit, I've come to like it more.

 

So if dedicated servers and optimizations to allow dynamic things, a spawn system, maybe a dynamic online mode like battlefield 1 operations where your team gets more resources, etc based on how you do, gets put in or if it's just net code optimizations to make it better, more people would enjoy multiplayer more.

 

One thing I hate about any mp game is you get on a team or squad that doesn't work together or is rude, doesn't value teamwork. But this niche community is better it seems. As long as ED is working with the sever hosters, things can get better and it will be even more welcoming.

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ED,

 

 

Don't let all the griping get you down. You know what they say, it is always the 10-20% that scream the loudest. You all have been doing a great job.

 

 

Sure there are a few issues in multiplayer, I know you all are working on. Strange though as long as I stay off of the the overly scripted servers, they magically disappear. I only get a strange issue once in a while then.

 

People need to remember when you add thousands upon thousands of lines of scripting on top of a program when you have no real insight into the code it is bound to cause numerous issues. It seems you are expected to design your product based upon what 2 or 3 server admins want you to do with it. Then they hit you with the ego that their way is always right and yours is always wrong.

 

Don't let it get you down and keep up the great work.

 

I don't know where you see this. The server admins that work regularly 6+ hours a day coding (n addition to their jobs) trying to keep up their servers are actively trying to communicate with ED, which they are right now, to make DCS better. There are a few issues in MP, but those issues are game-breaking for a lot of people. Nobody is griping here, everybody is wanting the same result, which is a better DCS MP, and obviously ED are working on it, but the server admins who are creating these wonderful and extremely complex dynamic missions have to deal with so many bugs that should have been fixed some time ago, and that is why everyone is talking here.

 

ED are working very hard to resolve this in coordination with the community, and the fact that you think that this community which has been, still is, and hopefully will continue to support ED greatly with help is GRIPING ED? That really is an insult to what lots of people do working up to 6 hours a day out of their free time on extremely creative, extremely complex, dynamic multiplayer campaigns on servers with 40+ people regularly trying to fix and deal with bugs present in DCS, of course along with continually finding workarounds for issues in DCS' code. What we are doing right now, all of us, is trying to work with ED, understanding eachother and both our needs and capabilities, to try to make DCS MP a good experience for all.


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I don't know where you see this. The server admins that work regularly 6+ hours a day coding (n addition to their jobs) trying to keep up their servers are actively trying to communicate with ED, which they are right now, to make DCS better. There are a few issues in MP, but those issues are game-breaking for a lot of people. Nobody is griping here, everybody is wanting the same result, which is a better DCS MP, and obviously ED are working on it, but the server admins who are creating these wonderful and extremely complex dynamic missions have to deal with so many bugs that should have been fixed some time ago, and that is why everyone is talking here.

 

ED are working very hard to resolve this in coordination with the community, and the fact that you think that this community which has been, still is, and hopefully will continue to support ED greatly with help is GRIPING ED? That really is an insult to what lots of people do working up to 6 hours a day out of their free time on extremely creative, extremely complex, dynamic multiplayer campaigns on servers with 40+ people regularly trying to fix and deal with bugs present in DCS, of course along with continually finding workarounds for issues in DCS' code. What we are doing right now, all of us, is trying to work with ED, understanding eachother and both our needs and capabilities, to try to make DCS MP a good experience for all.

 

Thank you Sir, this thread is a breath of fresh air

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ED,

Don't let all the griping get you down. You know what they say, it is always the 10-20% that scream the loudest. You all have been doing a great job.

 

People need to remember when you add thousands upon thousands of lines of scripting on top of a program when you have no real insight into the code it is bound to cause numerous issues. It seems you are expected to design your product based upon what 2 or 3 server admins want you to do with it. Then they hit you with the ego that their way is always right and yours is always wrong.

 

Don't let it get you down and keep up the great work.

 

I mean, the people "screaming the loudest" here are trying to let people play the game ED has created. We want people to be experiencing DCS, not crashes and rubber banding. This isn't really a case of balance, tweaking, or functionality being extended in the game, but rather just letting people play the game.

 

I've been helping to run/administrate/develop Georgia at War for a few months now, and it's really opened my eyes to what all the other large server administrators need to deal with to keep their stuff running. I want to be able to work with ED to make it so that hoggit (and the servers we run) (and other communities with similar goals) can provide the best experience to people who want to enjoy DCS.

 

This is less about griping and more about communication and letting ED know that this problem that's been growing for a while now is starting to reach a tipping point.

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I guess you didnt read the whole thing. I said there were issues in multiplayer. They even said they are working on some of the stuff.

 

 

 

Face it, many of the items above is based upon a handful of servers with thousand of lines of scripting.

 

 

 

To sit and think these all powerful server admins should have a direct line to ED, their input should be taken more than joe blow who just plays singleplayer just points to an entitlement mentality.

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I guess you didnt read the whole thing. I said there were issues in multiplayer. They even said they are working on some of the stuff.

 

 

 

Face it, many of the items above is based upon a handful of servers with thousand of lines of scripting.

 

 

 

To sit and think these all powerful server admins should have a direct line to ED, their input should be taken more than joe blow who just plays singleplayer just points to an entitlement mentality.

 

I think people are entitled for the product to actually work and work well, not be fobbed with 'Oh it's complicated, you don't know how complicated it is'.

 

Appreciate its complicated, but still expect it to be fixed.

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I think people are entitled for the product to actually work and work well, not be fobbed with 'Oh it's complicated, you don't know how complicated it is'.

 

Appreciate its complicated, but still expect it to be fixed.

 

But it needs to be stressed when comparisons of less complicated games are used as a yard stick to measure where everyone thinks DCS should be.

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Any negative discussion is usually met with swift punishment. As a community we should be able to voice ourselves accordingly. Eagle Dynamics should desire to make something better based on community feedback.

 

The online community is huge and does continue to grow. I was a flight lead and mission dev for Through The Inferno for a year. I resigned because of the lack of online support from Eagle Dynamics. The online has significant flaws that need to be addressed. There is only so much development work that a server owner can do on this platform.

 

There are still significant issues with lag, performance, and hosting. None of which can be solved by a server owner. Through The Inferno has done a great job over the last two years working on ways to solve issues.

 

Without proper dedicated multiplayer support from Eagle Dynamics the online portion is doomed. I will never buy another product from Eagle Dynamics until they show some sort of good faith they will be fixing those issues.

 

I don't play games solo. I play online with people I know. 1.5.7 was the last time I ever enjoyed DCS online.

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Any negative discussion is usually met with swift punishment.

 

This is not true, we have rules to make sure everyone discusses things in a constructive and mature manner, and it is really not as strict as some like to make it out to be, generally, people with warnings earned them, and if not, you can approach anyone on the moderation team about it.

 

There are two ways to discuss something that is negative in nature. There are many comments in this thread that are negative towards the state of MP as they see it, yet no punishment has been handed out. So please don't paint a picture stating you cant express yourself.

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Expanding on what Ciribob says for optimisation, we need to calm down the

 

  • CPU spike for the loading in of new object models to the game. Client models can be mitigated with placing the static models but the killer ones for CPU spikes are:

 

  • Weapons spawning, including bullet (especially if anyone is tracking hit events which I gave up doing years back and advise people against.) MLRS and clusters being bad boys for years.

 

  • Destroyed object models entering the game. Pretty much it can kill FPS in a sharp spike (VR users are panned with this type of slowness)

 

Other culprits include:

 

 

  • Routing (esp ground) is both a bit iffy in its result, and depending on the route calculation very CPU costly, I gave up with moving groups for anything larger scale back in 2015, it's like a multiplication factor on network connected clients.

 

  • Sensor "pulses". By this, i mean the second delay on sensor calcs and detection that accumulates. I recall back on a bug with sam sites that you will get CPU mini spikes around the time of the detection firing, the more sams and radars in a miz the worse this gets and it's very costly in CPU, but magnified per items and clients again with the network traffic sent. Detection with units is probably the largest limiting unit count factor you have in MP.

 

  • Badly or over handled events (esp onhit) Speaks for itself. Landing events and other such calcs aren't too painful but event handling at critical combat moments (hit/dead) is over used and generally detracting. Mostly this is mission design as a cause though rather than game design.

 

I've been limiting my servers since forever after giving up hope on large unit counts by phasing in groups and mission play, but I've been close to mission scripting for a couple of years now and i'm seeing generally repeat questions on those dedicated enough to write more.

 

 

  • Resource Manager. He isn't accessible to scripting so people don't use it. if it was widened to write to a sqllite db and contained objects like ground units there would be a massive upsurge in scripters using it to throttle spawned in items and store data between mission sessions. As it is, we read and write tables to disk to keep persistence, or even use server side exporters which is more technical.The potential in RM is amazing but it's like tools suddenly went down on it many years ago. Whilst at this, write out all the units vec3's and give us a save game.

 

  • As it stands, DCS is based on a single sortie experience and the entire UI flow is based on that, with no access to flight planning (which people adore), Clients having dynamic spawn locations is impossible outside of a carrier and thus you end up using Ciri's client blocking server side code and having a gazillion spawn possibilities to scroll through. The entire workflow needs to start with the F10 map and create you spawn location and flight route. Users would join a mission in progress and be greeted with a much better view and first impression.

 

  • Farps can't be moved. Something along the lines of engineering needs to be brought into the world, and failing that just the ability to spawn ATC and refuelling services outside of a model (Viggen was plagues with trying to find satisfactory solutions and helicopters love logistical stuff to do.)

 

  • Clearing up of debris, old models and runway "deaths. Since 1.2 we could no longer remove debris of destroyed units. Additionally, runways can be bombed, trigger a scenery "death" and never repair themselves (crippling AI, good, forever, bad). These two factors alone have created a mandatory restart period for missions regardless of server stability and possible uptime.

If these roadblocks can be removed, it opens up dynamic campaigns without having to work round a recreate all the code from scratch. There's only a handful of writers in the community that can commit to these kinds of projects and most of them end up on 90% done and give up at final hurdles.

___________________________________________________________________________

SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING *

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To sit and think these all powerful server admins should have a direct line to ED, their input should be taken more than joe blow who just plays singleplayer just points to an entitlement mentality.

 

I wouldn't say that it's entitlement. Those server owners represent the quality enjoyment and playtime of dozens or hundreds of unique players. I think it's completely reasonable for ED to reach out to server owners and work with them to find and resolve any issues that may exist.

 

At worst, everyone here that's complaining goes 'Woo! ED is taking it seriously!', at best it helps things get better with less effort.

 

Very happy to hear information from the ED team on upcoming dedicated servers. Sounds like the MP experience is being taken seriously and I hope that continues. :thumbup:

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I wouldn't say that it's entitlement. Those server owners represent the quality enjoyment and playtime of dozens or hundreds of unique players. I think it's completely reasonable for ED to reach out to server owners and work with them to find and resolve any issues that may exist.

 

Totally agree. A lot of these guys pour their hearts and souls into building an environment where other players can come and enjoy the game, get some help and even learn a thing or two. Why shouldn't they be entitled to a little bit more love and support than the single player guy that buys a module off the shelf and offers nothing in return?

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Totally agree. A lot of these guys pour their hearts and souls into building an environment where other players can come and enjoy the game, get some help and even learn a thing or two. Why shouldn't they be entitled to a little bit more love and support than the single player guy that buys a module off the shelf and offers nothing in return?

 

I don't think we should be taking swings at the single player crowd any more than the multiplayer crowd do you? A lot of SP guys come here, report bugs and help out. Let's not divide. There should be no division, both sides of the game need to be strong, it might be perceived that SP gets more love, but it's more because there are more variables to MP issues.

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