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EM charts?


TBear
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Haha, priceless. You guys just read the word "crap", and make no effort to understand what he actually meant. Sure it is a "harsh" word and sounds dismissive, but is that actually the primary thing you extract from the advice given?

 

Like I said, the dude is a pro, there should be no doubt that he is all kinds of capable reading and correctly applying all kinds of charts. What he is saying is this: If you rely on your books and charts too much, and don't develope a "feel for the aircraft", you will sooner or later end up in a situation that you cannot handle. I mean, all of us can go to youtube and watch the "Jetstream" series (I know, it's television, still the message rings true) in it's entirety, check out those nuggets and how they struggle with BFM, none of them had a problem with academics, but some of them had trouble fighting in the F18 because it just didn't "click".

If you fight only by the book, someone who didn't stop his learning process there will have a field day against you.

 

EM charts offer a framework from where to build your "feel for the aircraft". Don't be so dismissive of other people's preferred learning process.

 

Cheers,

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I'm not dismissive of the OP at all. I am just dumbfounded by the responses to BSS_Sniper's post, I mean him and the OP already figured it out, but here comes the brigade of keyboard warriors telling a real pilot how he is a hazard waiting to happen, I mean COME ON.

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I'm not dismissive of the OP at all. I am just dumbfounded by the responses to BSS_Sniper's post, I mean him and the OP already figured it out, but here comes the brigade of keyboard warriors telling a real pilot how he is a hazard waiting to happen, I mean COME ON.

 

Well, yeah. I agree that real life pilots are getting some weird reactions from some wikipedia experts.

All good, then.

 

Cheers,

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... a brigade of keyboard warriors telling a real pilot how he is a hazard waiting to happen, I mean COME ON.

 

Real pilot here, bud. You shouldn't make assumptions, there are a lot of us on these forums. And like I said, if "charts are for the guys on the ground" is his approach to flying real world aircraft, which it seems to be based on his own comments, then he is a hazard. This is statistically verifiable. A fact, if you will.

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Phantom pilots didn't figure out how to fight against MiG's in Vietnam until the Ault Report forced them to start looking more closely at performance data and combat history. They looked at the after action reports in Phantom/MiG engagements to that point and also got their hands on a captured Fresco, gleaning a great deal about its strengths and weaknesses firsthand. It was largely the analysis generated from that research, according to the linked video, that turned things around for F-4 pilots in Vietnam. Keep in mind, they had years of experience and hadn't fully intuited these things on their own up to that point.

 

Watch from 31:00

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Phantom pilots didn't figure out how to fight against MiG's in Vietnam until the Ault Report forced them to start looking more closely at performance data and combat history. They looked at the after action reports in Phantom/MiG engagements to that point and also got their hands on a captured Fresco, gleaning a great deal about its strengths and weaknesses firsthand. It was largely the analysis generated from that research, according to the linked video, that turned things around for F-4 pilots in Vietnam. Keep in mind, they had years of experience and hadn't fully intuited these things on their own up to that point.

 

Watch from 31:00

 

that was an entirely different era. with much simpler avionics technology and less refined missiles that needed the pilot to deal with a much stricter launch parameters to have a good chance of shooting down a target.

 

 

Frankly comparison and knowledge of opponent of Avionic System ( if available) and knowledge on how best utilize Ones own systems within the plane is nowadays far more important than comparing aircraft performance,and relying on that as your primary way of defeating other aircraft.

 

 

 

 

 

anY lower performance aircraft. that fitted with comparable ( or better) avionics can still give higher performance aircraft a strong run for its money just because of the avionics alone. especially if hypothetically such an aircraft has a avionics advantage.

 

 

Whilst this video was an education on the capabilities nad vast changes going from 4th generation to 5th genreation there are similaries in comaprison and some analogies can be applied trying to compare from 3rd gen aircraft ( like nam era F4) to a Late 4th generation aircraft being represented in DCS.

 

 

Fro the time being in WIP state we have to learn to fly the Hornet in such a way as 3rd generation would be flown. ( due to no IFF and poor radar performance in maneuvers) until systems are refined and more features are added. BUt as the Hornet eventually reaches the point of final release, it may as well feel like a hole another beast. I am especially looking forward to LInk 16 implementation. That has been called the greatest improvement in Situational awareness since the addtion of the Search radar to Aircraft.


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  • 1 year later...
This is pretty generic. Unclass since no specific weight or Config details are stated Its for an FA18A. Source of the chart is an old USN VFA125 Pilot Training manual (circa 1984).

 

Hello, is the VFA125 f-18A manual available for download anywhere?

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i'm looking for maneuvering charts like that

This is pretty generic. Unclass since no specific weight or Config details are stated Its for an FA18A. Source of the chart is........

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Then you're looking for A1-F18AC-NFM-200, it is for Hornets F/A-18A/B/C/D equipped with F404-GE-400 engines.

 

The version for the F404-GE-402 engined Hornets is A1-F18AC-NFM-210 and I've not yet found a copy of it online, and as others have mentioned in the thread, it's probably still classified.

 

If anyone knows better though, I'd love some rule 1.16 compliant clues on how to find it.

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Just fly the plane...thats what my dad, 30k flight hours would say. Charts are for the guys on the ground...lol Google the NATOPS flight manual, what you're looking for is prob in there.

 

30k? Been a pilot my entire life and never met anyone with 30k, he get a 747 gig at 25 or something? You’d need to max your 17 CFR 121 limits for 30 straight years...

 

OP- EM charts are available, but as others have said, reading them is an art in itself. Know your corner speed, understand radius v rate, how weight and altitude effect best rate IAS and performance (generally, no need to memorize). Most ppl are far better served by practicing actually hitting and maintaining that speed, and learning/understanding range/angle off/closure relationships, types of pursuit curves, etc. If you’ve already got that all down pat then my apologies, no offense was intended.

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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It's not classified, but it is export controlled...

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Then you're looking for A1-F18AC-NFM-200, it is for Hornets F/A-18A/B/C/D equipped with F404-GE-400 engines.

 

The version for the F404-GE-402 engined Hornets is A1-F18AC-NFM-210 and I've not yet found a copy of it online, and as others have mentioned in the thread, it's probably still classified.

 

If anyone knows better though, I'd love some rule 1.16 compliant clues on how to find it.

 

The NFM-200 manuals are without EM charts, so i asked for the VFA 125 F/A-18A manual. then maybe you could try ~ converting the charts to the GE-402 powered Hornet, based on the engine data from the 1996 gao report

https://www.gao.gov/assets/160/155498.pdf page81

+

1932524952_FigureD.7.png.869c34df28e2a55f4f9237cc129dd994.png from unknown source, shared by other member

 

If you want the some EM charts for the 18 there's a good chance their in a manual called:

 

A1-F18AC-NFM-210

 

As far as I can tell it's not classified there just isn't a copy available on the internet.

 

the chances of getting this book seem hopeless


Edited by HDpilot

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The NFM-200 manuals are without EM charts, so i asked for the VFA 125 F/A-18A manual. then maybe you could try ~ converting the charts to the GE-402 powered Hornet, based on the engine data from the 1996 gao report

https://www.gao.gov/assets/160/155498.pdf page81

+

[ATTACH]227211[/ATTACH] from unknown source, shared by other member

 

 

 

the chances of getting this book seem hopeless

 

 

Very interesting document! A couple of interesting things in it:

 

- Calls the FLIR a "Forward looking infrared radar pod"

- Mentions the legacy hornet can carry either the 480-gallon fuel tank on its wing

 

Back to the topic, it says the turn rate for the GE-402 engine at sea level is 19.2 deg/s, it doesn't mention what stores are on though

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Man you guys are relentless. Fine.... I have a full manual for a Hornet as best I can tell 1 SCS prior to ours, but its old school binders with paper supplements, stamped no distro/export. I might ask random intercept or BFM geometry questions first but I'll something up or scan a page or two. I do not have -34 supplement for SCS 18C1 (the BRU-55) so don't ask...

 

You might want to be a little careful with some of the images getting posted btw

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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Digital theme park.com is doing a f-18 workshop on Saturday morning my time. Check it out

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That being said IN ever more Modern air combat EM are becoming less and less relevant. Lest i bring up David Berke Video, on how from a pilots perspective Information and various Sensors are far more vital Especially more so in the 5th generation of aircraft.

 

That's what they said in Vietnam when they took the gun out of the F-4 because it would all be BVR, until they were getting their asses handed to them in close range visual fights by technologically inferior aircraft.

 

Yes, sensors in 5th gen jets are the main emphasis. But no self-respecting Raptor pilot is going to ignore the EM charts or learn to max perform his or her aircraft in a visual fight.

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Haha, priceless. You guys just read the word "crap", and make no effort to understand what he actually meant. Sure it is a "harsh" word and sounds dismissive, but is that actually the primary thing you extract from the advice given?

 

Like I said, the dude is a pro, there should be no doubt that he is all kinds of capable reading and correctly applying all kinds of charts. What he is saying is this: If you rely on your books and charts too much, and don't develope a "feel for the aircraft", you will sooner or later end up in a situation that you cannot handle. I mean, all of us can go to youtube and watch the "Jetstream" series (I know, it's television, still the message rings true) in it's entirety, check out those nuggets and how they struggle with BFM, none of them had a problem with academics, but some of them had trouble fighting in the F18 because it just didn't "click".

If you fight only by the book, someone who didn't stop his learning process there will have a field day against you.

 

But that's not what this "supposed pro" said. He said or strongly implied: "Ignore the charts, and just go fly". That's what I took from it and he's wrong. Dead wrong. As someone earlier said, the charts are the foundation of learning a particular aircraft. But it is not the end of the learning. Of course you are then going to go fly, explore the edges of the envelope to feel how the aircraft performs in various flight regimes and such. But to say the charts are "crap" is about the least professional thing a pilot can say.

 

No one is saying to "fight or fly" solely by the book. But if you don't start out with the book and know the book - you have no basis to understand when and how to deviate from the book and to improvise as necessary. Just saying.

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Real pilot here, bud. You shouldn't make assumptions, there are a lot of us on these forums. And like I said, if "charts are for the guys on the ground" is his approach to flying real world aircraft, which it seems to be based on his own comments, then he is a hazard. This is statistically verifiable. A fact, if you will.

 

Yep

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