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Just my $0.02 on ECM Blinking


Rhen
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Ya, I know. I was just agreeing. 5-10 seconds is not blinking, and that is not an exscuse for being shot down online.

 

 

It still prevents you from holding a lock and opening fire from 20-40nm away, I suppose. ;)

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True, but it still alows some situational awareness...

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

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No, Hitman, you are violating the laws of physics by saying that. Remember, nothing "sucks"...it pushes. :D I "push" too, buddy. :D

 

For the first time in my life Im gonna actually type this combo of letters: ROFLMFAO! Rep inbound...I needed that, lol.

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LOL, wasn't that on one of those old TV shows that are being rerun on Nicoledeon or something....:megalol:

 

 

~S~

 

 

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They are perfectly detailed in Stimson's classic "Introduction to Airborne Radar", a book most of us read I suppose and which is a Lockon essential.

 

While I still reject ECM blinking scripts, I find the most important statement by Rhen between the lines: A2A combat is within the 12nm range, and in this sense Lockon enforces RL tactics.

 

I can imagine that even if you could have good lock IRL from higher range, ROE would most probably force you to go closer before a shot, no?

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what about blackholes

 

Gravity... it's not air pressure. there's no air in spae. lol

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DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

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Alright, may I add to this ECM blinking saga.

 

I would consider ECM blinking with a macro a definite cheat and not-honourable conduct, especially online because many people are not able to do the same. heck, in that case anyone not having a HOTAS is in great disdvantage also but then again would you say someone having a HOTAS is a cheater? What if I use HOTAS to program certain commands to execute it in 1/2sec where as in real life the same procedure would take me 5sec?

 

This topic/discussion is really turning up into beating a dead horse as really there are valid points to both sides.

 

I would just personally say I don't think it's nice for someone using a macro to enable automated ECM on/off. I would consider that a cheat.

 

Other than that, someone using his own hand to turn on/off ECM manually I wouldn't consider a cheat because a pilot can do the same. Weather or not pilots are trained and encouraged to do so will stay debatable.

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No longer active in DCS...

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They should just ban ECM online all together! lol. (sarcastic)

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

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What about chaff/flare release macros? I'm pretty sure a lot of people program their HOTAS to dump x amount of countermeasures within y seconds.

 

I would just personally say I don't think it's nice for someone using a macro to enable automated ECM on/off. I would consider that a cheat.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I think that would be OK: you use the games' features to implement something that also exists in reality: like the countermeasure release program you can select as a pilot in F4:AF.

 

Manually blinking ECM, or alternating ECM with a wingman also seem sound practices. but a macro that switches ECM on/off at a very high frequency seems to me more of an exploit than something else. I think it resembles very much the print screen trick, and not a genuine attempt to clever ECM usage. It's a question of gradation.

 

Anyway we are making a lot about nothing; I feel something for Rhen's main point: to let it rest.

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What about chaff/flare release macros? I'm pretty sure a lot of people program their HOTAS to dump x amount of countermeasures within y seconds.

 

That's different. ECM blinking may be a technique, but it's automated - the pilot has no control over it. Realistically, all the pilot does is switch the ECM switch "ON," and the TEWS takes care of the rest.

 

Flare deployment is manual; chaff can be both manual and auto. Sure, releasing 10 flares in the blink of an eye is sorta gay, but in this case, the "that's-an-exploit!" camp can say nothing, because you really do manually deploy flares.

 

In LOMAC, the various jamming techniques employed when you turn your jammer on is ALREADY "simulated" - that is, ED intended that you just turn your jammer on and that's it. More accurately, the current ECM model wasn't designed to ACTUALLY simulate any REAL ECM techniques - it simplifies the whole ECM vs. ECCM battle into the very BASIC model we have now. Thus, in this manner, LOMAC's simplified ECM model takes into account the various ECM techniques, by NOT taking the various ECM vs. ECCM techniques into account. It's sorta a paradox.

 

Thus, by manually blinking your ECM jammer, your "exploiting" LOMAC's ECM vs. ECCM system. The model just can't handle it, because from the outset, it wasn't DESIGNED to handle ACTUAL jamming techniques - the whole system is a COMPROMISE. Think about it - with regards to the ECM vs. ECCM debate, if you manually blink your jammer, how do you manually counter this? There is NO manual ECCM, because it doesn't exist in the current system.

 

By turning on your jammer really quickly on and off, and denying shot opportunities within 12 nm, you ARE abusing what ED intended to do. That's a fact. Nobody "manually" blinks their ECM IRL - realistically, the pilot just switches the jammer switch on and that's it, the computer takes over. ED intended to model this, but they missed the fact that blinking denies lock opportunities. Thus, to macro blinking to your star-sticks, you are "exploiting" what ED "overlooked."

 

That's the counter-argument.

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By turning on your jammer really quickly on and off, and denying shot opportunities within 12 nm,

 

Yes another one getting it wrong. It's 'outside of' 12nm, not 'within'.

 

Thus, to macro blinking to your star-sticks, you are "exploiting" what ED "overlooked."

 

That's the counter-argument.

 

As you'd be exploiting maddogged heaters, flying under 10m, head-on chaff sensitivity ... head-on barrel rolling. So what makes this different? ;)

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Yes another one getting it wrong. It's 'outside of' 12nm, not 'within'.

 

I'm a neutral party, just repeating what others have said.

 

As you'd be exploiting maddogged heaters, flying under 10m, head-on chaff sensitivity ... head-on barrel rolling. So what makes this different? ;)

 

Nothing. But how is this proof to support your position? How does this support your point that blinking is not an exploit?

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I was surprised to get a 2-shot-2-kill out of a TWS engagement the other day too ... I had expected to fire 2 more missiles to get a single kill (it was a 1v2 on the 504). Sometimes stuff just works! O.o

 

And yes, they have a 'fix' for blinking, and I'm sure they have a 'fix' for every other ECM method out there ... likewise the ECM guys likely have a 'fix' for all these nifty ECCM methods. That's just how it goes :D

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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So, again I ask, since you have impeached my play of LOMAC...what is YOUR position on the "blinking" issue? Do you have a position, or were you just giving me shit? I can handle it if you were just f'ing with me, but everybody knows my position on it. As "irrelevant" as my opinion might be...what is yours, Pilotasso?

 

I havent impeached anything, nor fighting anyone. If I gave that impression I apologise, it was just a gag, dont sweat it.

 

Heh...he logs off. Yeah...that's what I thought, Pilotasso, buddy. No actual position on the subject, but you want to exclude my opinion because I don't meet your "on-line" fighter flying criteria. Please teach me about ADCs, because I don't use them enough on-line, and I'm looking for an expert opinion. LMFAO!

 

I logged off because I needed to, as you can see I came back to read all the way back from where I left off.

I am not some kind of police to controll everyones play, if they want to do those short cuts who am I to stop them?

If I protested in the past was to protect gaming from being ruined, Im not going to judge anyone for the kind of gaming they do.

 

Cheers

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Man...thats classic!

 

How so? All the information I can get is stuff from the mass media.

 

So, what is the difference between getting your information from Google or from a coffie table book ?

 

Some of it will be good and some of it will be junk.

 

 

Remember you can always Google the manufacturers and see what they have to say about their own designs.

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Regarding blinking and half dozen other issues (most with the F-15C), we have generated an internal short list of possible fixes for a 1.13 patch, but we still do not know when or if (big if still) such a patch will happen (perhaps after Black Shark is wrapped up). Right now the team is very, very busy with Black Shark and a couple other projects and those must take priority.

 

We ARE listening and hope to resolve some of these issues at a later time. Right now though the team is just stretched too thin.

 

-Matt

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