Air-Air Refueling

[sze5003]

I sure will let you know how it goes. One quick question.

When the tanker says go to say 8000 ft as pre-contact position, do I get to that altitude exactly?

Most times, I find myself above the tanker if I go to the pre-contact altitude stated by the tanker?

I find that 7800 is fine for pre contact. Once you get closer you will have a better idea.

[probad]

just use your eyes

 

fly up to the tanker

you need to hold formation with the tanker so look at the tanker, not at numbers

[Yurgon]

When Mission editor say 300knts for tanker, is this indicated, True or Ground speed.

 

There was a recent discussion in another thread. I think the ME actually sets ground speed, so the indicated airspeed is going to be a lot lower depending on the altitude.

 

If you set a tanker in the ME, you should double check that it's flying at a proper airspeed by actually flying formation with it in the mission, and not relying on the value set in the ME.

 

Most videos on yt on aar do not lay out procedures of getting to pre-contact position.

 

I guess most guides will teach players to approach from the aft, right into the refueling position. IRL aircraft often fly formation, and the standard procedure would be to line up in the so called observation area, usually off the left wing of the the tanker, and then one receiver after the other would slide into pre-contact and then refueling area, get gas, and after that get in formation in the reform area, usually off the tanker's right wing, while the next formation member prepares to get fuel.

 

Even in a single ship flight, there's nothing wrong with this procedure. Don't fly right into the refueling area. Instead, get in formation with the tanker, and remain in a stable formation off the tanker's wing (doesn't really matter whether you pick the right wing or the left one).

 

Then slide into the pre-contact area and stabilize aft and slightly below the tanker. This change of formation takes a bit of practice. But after all, AAR *is* formation flying, and you can't expect to get good at refueling without being good at formation flying.

 

Once done with refueling, slide into position off the tanker's other side. If you're alone, just imagine you had a wingman who's taking some gas before you depart from the tanker.

 

For me, going from observation area to pre-contact is easier than trying to get into pre-contact right away. But that's what I've been practicing for months in the A-10C, and ultimately, that's always the key point: practice, practice, practice. :)

 

So, I always use the USAF Aggressors as the country for the IL-78 so that they always reply in English exactly as the S-3 and KC-130 do.

 

Hey, that's a smart trick! :thumbup:

 

When the tanker says go to say 8000 ft as pre-contact position, do I get to that altitude exactly?

 

I'm never really sure what the tanker call-out is based on, whether it's MSL or in relation to standard pressure setting (although the tanker never talks about Flight Levels). Anyway, until you're visual with the tanker, you should stay 500 to 1000 ft below the announced altitude, just so you don't risk running into the tanker by accident.

 

And when you are visual, it doesn't really matter what altitude he's at, just get into formation. :thumbup:

[Eldur]

Is somebody else having problem with the KC-135B?

 

Let's face it, the real problem with that tanker is that it is completely outside of any possible peripheral vision and even worse, it's completely hidden behind the bars. How are you supposed to stay up with him in those "CASE IV" conditions?

[Biga42]

I connected 3 times..but the hose dont bend, I think this is the main problem to be solved by dev team.

[Eaglewings]

There was a recent discussion in another thread. I think the ME actually sets ground speed, so the indicated airspeed is going to be a lot lower depending on the altitude.

 

If you set a tanker in the ME, you should double check that it's flying at a proper airspeed by actually flying formation with it in the mission, and not relying on the value set in the ME.

 

 

 

I guess most guides will teach players to approach from the aft, right into the refueling position. IRL aircraft often fly formation, and the standard procedure would be to line up in the so called observation area, usually off the left wing of the the tanker, and then one receiver after the other would slide into pre-contact and then refueling area, get gas, and after that get in formation in the reform area, usually off the tanker's right wing, while the next formation member prepares to get fuel.

 

Even in a single ship flight, there's nothing wrong with this procedure. Don't fly right into the refueling area. Instead, get in formation with the tanker, and remain in a stable formation off the tanker's wing (doesn't really matter whether you pick the right wing or the left one).

 

Then slide into the pre-contact area and stabilize aft and slightly below the tanker. This change of formation takes a bit of practice. But after all, AAR *is* formation flying, and you can't expect to get good at refueling without being good at formation flying.

 

Once done with refueling, slide into position off the tanker's other side. If you're alone, just imagine you had a wingman who's taking some gas before you depart from the tanker.

 

For me, going from observation area to pre-contact is easier than trying to get into pre-contact right away. But that's what I've been practicing for months in the A-10C, and ultimately, that's always the key point: practice, practice, practice. :)

 

 

 

Hey, that's a smart trick!

 

 

 

I'm never really sure what the tanker call-out is based on, whether it's MSL or in relation to standard pressure setting (although the tanker never talks about Flight Levels). Anyway, until you're visual with the tanker, you should stay 500 to 1000 ft below the announced altitude, just so you don't risk running into the tanker by accident.

 

And when you are visual, it doesn't really matter what altitude he's at, just get into formation.

Good one . Thanks

[Nealius]

ME speed is TAS, if I recall correctly. Setting a KC130 to 333kts at 18000MSL gives an IAS of about 247kts in-game.

[proletariat23]

talk to a real tanker pilot about how dead you'd all be at 247knts with liquid fuel being moved around in any nato aircraft boom or basket.

 

DOX your real life pilots, or you don't have any.

[chiefav8er]

A good rule of thumb we use in real flying to estimate true airspeed is 2 percent per thousand feet of altitude.

 

For example, at 18000... 18 x 0.02 = 0.36 or 36 percent higher. 247 x 1.36 is 335 knots.

 

I use this formulae in ME to set the tanker speed. I choose an indicated airspeed to use in the tanker track, figure the TAS differential by 2% per thousand feet of altitude in the tanker track. Then multiply the indicated airspeed by the TAS differential and set the tanker speed to the result.

 

Kevin

[chiefav8er]

talk to a real tanker pilot about how dead you'd all be at 247knts with liquid fuel being moved around in any nato aircraft boom or basket.

 

DOX your real life pilots, or you don't have any.

 

Not sure where you are headed with this. The F/A-18 typically uses 250 KIAS for refueling below 25k altitude.

 

Some airplanes higher even yet, others slower (A-10).

 

Kevin

[Weta43]

(blah...) DOX your real life pilots, or you don't have any.

see:

dox

 

/dɒks/

 

verb

informal

 

gerund or present participle: doxing

 

search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.

"hackers and online vigilantes routinely dox both public and private figures"

 

If you don't mean 'identify (...) with malicious intent', please only use words you know the meaning of.

 

If you do, go to another forum.

[Midnightzulu]

talk to a real tanker pilot about how dead you'd all be at 247knts with liquid fuel being moved around in any nato aircraft boom or basket.

 

DOX your real life pilots, or you don't have any.

 

Well, you’ve got one here. A-10s and C-130s refuel around 200kts. I never saw one spontaneously combust while on the boom. Where are you getting your information?

[sze5003]

Well, you’ve got one here. A-10s and C-130s refuel around 200kts. I never saw one spontaneously combust while on the boom. Where are you getting your information?

Don't bother with that post, he/she would want you to post your credentials online like some sort of authentication process.

[Midnightzulu]

Yeah. “Doxing” apparently. I don’t think he’ll have much luck on that particular quest. He has a tendency to post as if he is some sort of expert. Just wanted to make clear the reality is he’s clueless.

[probad]

oh you guys weren't here back when he had his stealth aircraft thread going.

 

those were some uh, good times.

[BSS_Sniper]

Well, you’ve got one here. A-10s and C-130s refuel around 200kts. I never saw one spontaneously combust while on the boom. Where are you getting your information?

 

talk to a real tanker pilot about how dead you'd all be at 247knts with liquid fuel being moved around in any nato aircraft boom or basket.

 

DOX your real life pilots, or you don't have any.

 

Wat?

[Yurgon]

A good rule of thumb we use in real flying to estimate true airspeed is 2 percent per thousand feet of altitude.

 

For example, at 18000... 18 x 0.02 = 0.36 or 36 percent higher. 247 x 1.36 is 335 knots.

 

I use this formulae in ME to set the tanker speed.

 

That sounds really useful, thanks a lot! :thumbup:

[chinpok]

How to refuel with autopilot:

 

I think this is a good way to start practicing(for a newbie): BALT ON(1 axis freedom), BALT OFF(2 axis), BALT and ATC OFF(3 axis).

I didn't know about this until now and more or less always messed up along 1 axis, last time I was quite stable but as I like to automate stuff(=I'm lazy) I will use it.

[sze5003]

How to refuel with autopilot:

 

I think this is a good way to start practicing(for a newbie): BALT ON(1 axis freedom), BALT OFF(2 axis), BALT and ATC OFF(3 axis).

I didn't know about this until now and more or less always messed up along 1 axis, last time I was quite stable but as I like to automate stuff(=I'm lazy) I will use it.

I do it this way but with atc hold only. I get close to tanker speed and then turn on auto throttle. I then align myself very slowly to be level while the autothrottle inches me closer. Once I connect it's just a matter of watching the horizon in relation to the tanker and keeping level with it.

[chinpok]

This is kinda off-topic but I just got the harrier and the engines on it are much more responsive, I think it is much harder to maintain the speed in the hornet due to it's lazy engines. In the harrier my first refuel was almost perfect I was almost glued in position relative to the tanker.

[muehlema]

This is kinda off-topic but I just got the harrier and the engines on it are much more responsive, I think it is much harder to maintain the speed in the hornet due to it's lazy engines. In the harrier my first refuel was almost perfect I was almost glued in position relative to the tanker.

 

There is a long thread about this topic - Hornet is EA and the FM is WIP ;)

[Spetz]

This is kinda off-topic but I just got the harrier and the engines on it are much more responsive, I think it is much harder to maintain the speed in the hornet due to it's lazy engines. In the harrier my first refuel was almost perfect I was almost glued in position relative to the tanker.

 

I find it very easy to maintain speed, but I keep messing up on the slow-down. Approaching a KC-130 that is doing 270 kts but I'm doing 370 and I keep think "no problem, speed brake and crab.." Nope.. zoom..right past..

 

But once in pre-contact and taking fuel, you simply walk the throttles back and forth only millimeters (Warthog HOTAS for me) to maintain position. No lateral stick movement though because that will mess you all up Rudder and pitch only..

 

Anyway, works for me

[Ignition]

I find it very easy to maintain speed, but I keep messing up on the slow-down. Approaching a KC-130 that is doing 270 kts but I'm doing 370 and I keep think "no problem, speed brake and crab.." Nope.. zoom..right past..

 

 

 

I have the same problem, I think it's because of the way distance is represented in game.

[Mule]

I've been practising this for a few hours this evening and I'm starting t nail it. So satisfying when you start to feel how to do it.

 

Now I set myself up to refuel over a carrier and then I go for a case 1 recovery. I have to dump all that lovely fuel though to make the landing. Such a waste :)

[Alfredson007]

First tries here... i'm with KC130 at 15000ft absolutely no weather... the IAS of the tanker is 260 knots. Everything goes smooothly i am very near the basket ... until hell breaks loose and huge oscillation happens. I am not sure is this wake turbulence or PIO ..