Karen & Kegler on stations 5 & 7

[tflash]

Honestly, I'm not really into the Vikhr hype. Of course I like it for its many merits, but I find the exaggerated screwdriver flightpath a little over the edge. The Vikhr pods have such negative impact on the Su-25T's flight characteristics, at least in lockon, that I rather prefer the "classic" missiles Kh-58, K-25MPU and Kh-25ML. Somehow if you load these missiles you experience no drag whatsoever in Lockon, and your Su-25T flies as if it were a ballerina.

 

The Kh-25ML is very effective even against moving armour if you launch it within the right parameters.

 

But my question is: why can't we load Kh-25MPU and Kh-25ML on stations 5 and 7? Not that I do not like Kh-58, but sometimes you want an all Karen or a mixed Karen/Kegler loadout.

 

Can someone confirm 5 and 7 only can take the heavier missiles?

[SwingKid]

Good question! The exhausts of Kh-25 series missiles emerge angled to either side, and the gases can thus be ingested by the Su-25 engine inlet. The heavier Kh-29 series has an axial exhaust that is less likely to be ingested. So, Kh-29 can be mounted closer to the engine nacelle than Kh-25.

 

-SK

[S77th-konkussion]

I wouldn't call it exxaggerated..

 

http://cops.zive.net/c-board/file/Vi...tion_erdem.avi (golf's post)

[tflash]

Good question! The exhausts of Kh-25 series missiles emerge angled to either side, and the gases can thus be ingested by the Su-25 engine inlet. The heavier Kh-29 series has an axial exhaust that is less likely to be ingested. So, Kh-29 can be mounted closer to the engine nacelle than Kh-25.

 

-SK

 

Thanks!

[Groove]

But using the Vikhrs you have much more missiles to engage large columns of vehicles Tflash. But im with you about the drag of the T when u have the Vikhrs on board.

[S77th-konkussion]

They worka helluva lot better on moving targets than the 29-T's do.

[Chizh]

Good question! The exhausts of Kh-25 series missiles emerge angled to either side, and the gases can thus be ingested by the Su-25 engine inlet. The heavier Kh-29 series has an axial exhaust that is less likely to be ingested. So, Kh-29 can be mounted closer to the engine nacelle than Kh-25.

 

-SK

Any missiles can cause engines surging.

Therefore all heavy missiles have a ejecting launch for distant engine start.

[Kuky]

Kh-25ML's is also much faster then Vikhr's. I like to use them on short range SAM's and AAA. I like Vikhr's for tanks and APC's, and other vehicles... especially coloums... but then again coloums are best engaged with cluster bombs.

[JEFX]

For me, the best SU-25T anti-column tactics is to take out the nasty vehicles first (short range SAMS such as Tor and OSA) in the column with KH-25ML because they have a better range, as pointed by Kuky, and then, use the Vikhr for AAA (ZSU-24 Shilkas) and end up flying above the column to release the cluster bombs to whipe as many as possible of the remaining vehicles. Then, fly away with erractic jinks in order to avoid possible remaining AAA, extend for more than a minute (to allow the laser designator to get ready again) and turn 180 degrees to finish the job.

 

Of course, here I am talking about russian made hardware against russian-made hardware (in a Russia vs Ukraine scenario for example).

 

The above mentioned tactics works so much better for me now that I have this new trackball to slew the designating piper of the Shkval, as mentioned in my other post a little earlier...

 

JEFX

[SwingKid]

Any missiles can cause engines surging.

Therefore all heavy missiles have a ejecting launch for distant engine start.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

-SK

[tflash]

For me, the best SU-25T anti-column tactics is to take out the nasty vehicles first (short range SAMS such as Tor and OSA) in the column with KH-25ML because they have a better range, as pointed by Kuky, and then, use the Vikhr for AAA (ZSU-24 Shilkas) and end up flying above the column to release the cluster bombs to whipe as many as possible of the remaining vehicles. Then, fly away with erractic jinks in order to avoid possible remaining AAA, extend for more than a minute (to allow the laser designator to get ready again) and turn 180 degrees to finish the job.

 

JEFX

 

Exactly. This is precisely what I do also, if using Kh-25ML it is important to stay high enough, the missile nicely bows into the target.

[Alfa_Kilo]

OT question:

 

Whats the max. look down angle for the nose optics in the -25T?

[159th_Viper]

OT question:

 

Whats the max. look down angle for the nose optics in the -25T?

 

-85 Degrees Elevation.

[Alfa_Kilo]

-85 Degrees Elevation.

 

Thanks.

Consider this scenario:

Su-25T dives (50'-60') onto a stationary target, acquires lock, launches a Vikhr and immediately levels out at an alt of 2000m above target, doing around 700km/h. The target is stationary, but the laser beam's angular speed is equal to that of the aircraft w.r.t. target. Doesn't this cause some inconvenience to the missile (being a beam rider) and force it to follow an oddly curved trajectory? I have never flown BS, but I feel that beam riding A2G missiles should be quite restrictive on post launch aircraft maneuverability as compared to homing types.

[Kuky]

On many occasions I launch laser guided weapons like Vikhr's and Kh-25ML's from 4000-5000m altitude and the missile will nicelly hit the target keeping me safe from any short range SAM's in area. You just need to watch to not roll the aircraft too much and keep the nose not too high to keep the target designator within it's horizontal and vertical limits. If you break the lock the missile will miss.

[Alfa_Kilo]

On many occasions I launch laser guided weapons like Vikhr's and Kh-25ML's from 4000-5000m altitude and the missile will nicelly hit the target keeping me safe from any short range SAM's in area. You just need to watch to not roll the aircraft too much and keep the nose not too high to keep the target designator within it's horizontal and vertical limits. If you break the lock the missile will miss.

 

What I meant was that even if the target is within the designator's limits, and a lock is maintained, do laser beam riding missiles tend to fly out of the beam if a sudden violent maneuver is performed? I believe that laser homing missiles are more flexible, especially when launched from a high speed platform. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Kuky]

If you perform a sudden violent maneuver you most likely break the lock because the target designator get's out of its limits.

[159th_Viper]

What I meant was that even if the target is within the designator's limits, and a lock is maintained, do laser beam riding missiles tend to fly out of the beam if a sudden violent maneuver is performed?

 

Correct, depending on the type of manouver and range to target, wether vehicle is moving etc etc - However once one is accustomed to the nuances of Vikhrs deployment and provided that your Attack Run is properly set-up there is imho no other weapon so effective in dealing with multiple targets on a single pass without the need to over-fly the Target area. Cannot fault having 8 missiles on a single weapons pylon either :)

[tflash]

Within the timeframe that the laser ranger allows, I can manage 3 to 4 moving BTR-70 kills in one pass, both with Vikhr and with Karen missiles. The Karen will miss when the target is manoevring and you shoot it to low / to late, but since its blast radius is very big you often still have the kill.

 

I do not recall having killed more than 4 in one pass. Of course, with the Vikhr you can come back for three more passes ;)

[Alfa_Kilo]

Vikhir is a laser beam rider. Does this mean it flies in some kind of a laser funnel/tube?

[159th_Viper]

No, rather the missile "rotates" around the Laser Beam. The missile detects the laser beam via two receiving sensors in the tail and attempts to keep the laser centered between these sensors.

[Alfa_Kilo]

No, rather the missile "rotates" around the Laser Beam. The missile detects the laser beam via two receiving sensors in the tail and attempts to keep the laser centered between these sensors.

 

Thanks a lot for that, it clears a lot of misconceptions I had. :thumbup:

[159th_Viper]

Thanks a lot for that, it clears a lot of misconceptions I had. :thumbup:

 

NP :)

[Sealpup]

Vikhir is a laser beam rider. Does this mean it flies in some kind of a laser funnel/tube?

 

Yup. It tries to center itself in the beam, with the missile's laser seeker looking to the rear instead of ahead. Advantage is that it cant be jammed (aircraft lock can be broke, but you can always ground-stabilize instead). Disadvantage is the missile stays in the beam and does not follow follow a more optimal flight path, resulting in a somewhat curved trajectory that bleeds kinetic energy.

 

Still a damned fun weapon!

 

EDIT: In the time it took me to type that out, we get three more posts... I'm getting slow

[Alfa_Kilo]

....... Disadvantage is the missile stays in the beam and does not follow follow a more optimal flight path, resulting in a somewhat curved trajectory that bleeds kinetic energy.

 

Still a damned fun weapon!

 

EDIT: In the time it took me to type that out, we get three more posts... I'm getting slow

 

Unlike the Hellfire.....

More, the merrier

 

I have this Su-24M video (the 'NEBA' full russian version), from http://www.patricksaviation.com , in which there is some footage of PGMs, including missiles (Kh-25ML is my guess) as seen from the onboard thermal sight! The system does not seem to have an image lock capability, instead it is ground stabilised and constantly corrected by the WSO. Sometimes the targetting crosshairs seem to be way off the target, but still the weapons hit.

 

Some interesting shots of missile firing and KAB-500L releases there.