What is up with night in VR?

[Hippo]

Hi - have had my Oculus for around six months, but haven't been using DCS as much as I'd have liked. I'd read that there were problems with night graphics with deferred shading, so haven't tried with that. But even with 1.5.8, 2.5.0, I tried the mission Midnight Train to Georgia, and - land looks too bright, and there is what I can only describe as a multicolour blob in the sky. The cockpit looks good. Are others seeing this as well, is it something that can be adjusted for? A deficiency with the way the Rift works?

[lemoen]

Are you running mad high gamma?

[Hippo]

Are you running mad high gamma?

 

 

The option doesn't exist in 1.5.8. In 2.5.0, it's set to 2.2, but I can't change it (I have deferred shading set to OFF).

[Repth]

Unfortunately if you want to run with DS off, that is the night environment you will have to deal with in VR :(

[guimcdo]

Maybe try that:

[Hippo]

Maybe try that:

 

 

Thank you. Gave it a go, but I noticed no difference.

[Hippo]

Unfortunately if you want to run with DS off, that is the night environment you will have to deal with in VR :(

 

I haven't looked at all the posts in depth, but I had come away with the impression 1.5 or 2.5. without DS = good, with DS = issues.

 

To me 1.5 looks too bright, and that sky texture is awful.

 

I've just tried 2.5.0 with DS. Which I think looks better / darker, but ground lights are too dark. And night vision goggles make the cockpit unreadable. But the mura issue described by the other poster is very noticeable now, maybe it's with DS that this is an issue? Going to gamma 1.0 almost eliminates the effect looking when looking forward, but look to the sides and it's back.

 

Looks like whatever you do you can't win.

 

I'll try the mura registry change in combination with DS, gamma 1.0 and see how that goes.

 

Is my description representative of your own experience?

[Repth]

I don't agree with most about DS being a bad thing. Honestly I think most of the negativity regarding DS right now is the community's lack of choice in the matter.

 

I currently run the open beta so my experience may differ from yours but I find the night environment much better than before with DS on. Even with the dimmed city lights.

 

I'm very curious now that the Persian gulf map is out to test the new night lighting. I don't notice the mura issues people are describing either. Currently I have my Gamma set to 1.6 I believe and for me at least, it strikes the right balance between night and day.

[Hippo]

Thank you. Gave it a go, but I noticed no difference.

 

I'll take that back now please. With DS, it definitely does make a difference*. The mura is eliminated but I'd say the blacks are no longer as black, almost as if there were a backlight washing everything out slightly. I'd also say the cockpit is more difficult to make out. So, looking to the front, better with SPUD on, looking to the sides - better with SPUD off. Overall, probably better with SPUD off. Ground lights are definitely way too dim.

 

(All done in A-10C mission "Night Train to Georgia", I expect that results may vary with other aircraft.

 

* I was not actually getting mura issues in 1.5.2, and mistakenly thought that this change might fix the sky texture problem - which it didn't.

 

Has anyone tried night in the 2.5.2 Persian Gulf? How's that looking. Do the NVGs work?

 

I suspect that getting a good night environment in VR is going to be very tricky.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Hippo

[Hippo]

I don't agree with most about DS being a bad thing. Honestly I think most of the negativity regarding DS right now is the community's lack of choice in the matter.

 

 

DS: I think that the external environment looks better, but the cockpit environment looks worse. My own negativity comes from a > 50% frame drop at same settings (when I use 4xMSAA, PD 1.2). IMHO not having MSAA on in VR gives unacceptable image quality. As you say it was the REMOVAL of choice that is the issue, rather than anything against DS in itself.

[Hippo]

So, looking to the front, better with SPUD on, looking to the sides - better with SPUD off. Overall, probably better with SPUD off. Ground lights are definitely way too dim.

 

And changing my mind, again. Overall better with SPUD ON. With a gamma of 1.0, it's actually pretty good. If the ground lights were much brighter, it would be very good. Just have to live with the mura when looking to the sides, but as will spend most time looking forward with instruments in view, acceptable.

 

All very subjective, and IMHO of course.

 

 

**** EDIT **** and I have to change my mind yet again. Whilst first impressions were good, trying to fly the A-10 in another mission was impractical as switches were very difficult to make out. Sorry to say, DCS, night and VR are a huge disappointment. I guess I'll have to stay with DS off - the external environment looks bad, but at least the cockpit's usable.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Hippo

[Cibit]

I'll take that back now please. With DS, it definitely does make a difference*. The mura is eliminated but I'd say the blacks are no longer as black, almost as if there were a backlight washing everything out slightly. I'd also say the cockpit is more difficult to make out. So, looking to the front, better with SPUD on, looking to the sides - better with SPUD off. Overall, probably better with SPUD off. Ground lights are definitely way too dim.

 

(All done in A-10C mission "Night Train to Georgia", I expect that results may vary with other aircraft.

 

* I was not actually getting mura issues in 1.5.2, and mistakenly thought that this change might fix the sky texture problem - which it didn't.

 

Has anyone tried night in the 2.5.2 Persian Gulf? How's that looking. Do the NVGs work?

 

I suspect that getting a good night environment in VR is going to be very tricky.

 

Persian Gulf in VR at night is sublime. Words can't describe it:thumbup: Even the car headlights illuminate the area in front of the cars

[Hippo]

Persian Gulf in VR at night is sublime. Words can't describe it:thumbup: Even the car headlights illuminate the area in front of the cars

 

 

Others don't seem so impressed.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=209337

[nrosko]

Persian Gulf in VR at night is sublime. Words can't describe it:thumbup: Even the car headlights illuminate the area in front of the cars

 

It looks terrible on mine, the sea & sky has awful banding like the game has 8 bit colour then the ground is a muddy mess.

What is DS?

[Hippo]

It looks terrible on mine, the sea & sky has awful banding like the game has 8 bit colour then the ground is a muddy mess.

What is DS?

 

DS = deferred shading. But there is no longer an option to disable it in 2.5.1 and later.

 

Have you tried turning your gamma down?

[nrosko]

Yes i tried messing with gamma. It seems the oculus is unable to deal with shades of darkness. Black is fine everything else isn't, it only seems to be able to produce a very low number of shades so a major issue is dusk & dawn.

Am I the only one getting banding & posterized effect? I also get the mura effect & this adds to the general ugliness.

[guimcdo]

There are some bug with lighting when DS activated on 2.5.

 

From my side, in KA-50 cockpit, reading by night was impossible, I fix this issue with ricardo's cockpit (see user files).

 

For the cockpit blurred with night google, it's the wanted effect by ED, I switch goggles off when I need to check my cockpit, and put them on when I see outside

 

With your specs, It's normal to have a lost of FPS with MSAA, did you try to use anisotropic filter instead of MSAA (in DCS and with nvidia control panel)?

[Torso]

DS = deferred shading. But there is no longer an option to disable it in 2.5.1 and later.

 

Have you tried turning your gamma down?

 

 

For VR usage, Gamma down has a real pro/con result when is use. To eliminate banding in VR you need to crank gamma UP, not down, the higher you set gamma, the less banding there is, However, you basically are now flying in much brighter(too bright) night obviously.

 

Lowered gamma also causes posterization of the ground textures and clouds at night along with the terrible, i mean absolutely terrible banding in the sky. Now if there were other adjustments we could make such as contrast and brightness along with gamma we maybe could tweak settings so the night time in VR would be much nicer but we only have gamma and it comes with consequences. Also, to really eliminate banding DCS would have to employ dithering or similar tech to really do away with it. Something I have asked about for ages with nothing coming back if feasible. They should, banding even shows up in daytime as well in the sky.

 

 

I am real curious if the Pimax or other newer sets with higher quality panels will help ease the night time VR flying pain points.

 

Also, DCS's ground lighting tech is terrible and just adds to the problems.

 

We need this kind of sprite light tech in DCS. Maybe they could use it in their engine.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Torso

[Hippo]

I think I've been a bit harsh. It seems to be an Oculus Rift issue, right? Do other headsets also have this issue?

My experience is: no DS - cockpit good - outside horrible.

DS: with very low gamma (1.0 - 1.1), outside is pretty much black, which is ok, city lights are way too dark though, and the cockpit is too dark to be comfortably usable. With higher gamma everything washes out too much for my taste.

Wouldn't ED have to make significant changes to get this "fixed", just for VR users? Doesn't seem very likely to me.

That video is brilliant, and gives (imho) a very good representation of what night looks like.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Hippo

[Torso]

DCS's night time issues are not just for VR users. VR users just exp a few of the issues to a greater degree. DCS moon lighting has improved greatly since they actually put some work into it. Still can further improve it as well but they have been able to make progress certainly. I think the scale of the moon is kinda small still, the light from it is good, just the representation in the sky is rather small. Their ground/object lighting game is a pathetic for most part sadly. Though they actually have taken the time to make the red tail light on the Hornet a quality looking light, pretty much every other is total trash.

 

They also are creating glowing terrain to compensate for their lack of lights in areas, so a house, in a not too populated area will look like it has stadium lights lighting up a large chunk of the terrain around it..totally unnatural looking. This glowing terrain becomes glowing blotches from viewed up high when we should be seeing point lights mainly unless a dense city where we get all the light overlap creating much brighter areas. But we should still be seeing point lights there too.

 

Take a look at these pics. This is the current lighting of the Stennis. The NEW carrier. Notice they are continuing to use the puffball, no light emitting 2d textures for it? Notice how it just doesn't look right at all? The total lack of light cast by any light in the pics on their surroundings? In addition to these giant puff balls all over that literally cannot be seen through. I can see them not being able to do this for all object or lights but for the carriers and airfields at least...c'mon man.

 

 

 

 

 

That vid I posted is 3yrs old. Things have improved even more since then. I wish ED would look into spritelights. Maybe their engine can do something like it.

 

I hope one day we see what is possible and not what is just settled on out of lack of apparent strong interest in this area by those assigning out the work to focus on.

[nrosko]

I'm in touch with Oculus tech support about it so lets see what they say. I just got to find a way of demonstrating the issue.

[Hippo]

I'm wandering out of my comfort zone here, so perhaps someone who's more knowledgeable can set me straight. Wouldn't it be possible for ED to add another shader that clamps grey colour values that exhibit the problem to pure black?

Edited May 31, 2018 by Hippo

[Hippo]

Actually, there is hope. With gamma at 1, and cockpit flood lighting at full, I have had with the F18 in the latest beta, the best night (imho) experience so far in DCS. mura almost gone, and no horrendous banding.

Try the attached mission.

Must call for landing (121.000 already set in pos 1 on comm1) for the airfield lights to come on(!).

Turn landing lights on.

Again, all imho, I still think the runway lights (and all ground lights) are far too dark and only become bright enough once very close to the runway. And they should be more like points than huge orbs. But once landed and on the runway, not too bad at all.

Also odd things happen when banking at high g and looking straight up through the canopy (g-effects?).

Straight-in Landing (Night).miz

Edited June 17, 2018 by Hippo