Any explanation for move to Deferred Shading in 2.5.1 from Devs?

[SkateZilla]

I have no clue why you want a technology that does not support AA in a game that heavily relies on intricate details in cockpits aswell as VR compatibility. On top of that a very detailed landscape and big cituies, power lines etc. Light interactions are important, but this decision seems driven by creating great looking screenshots of models and not really made for optimized gameplay.

 

Technology must continue to develop and I am really lucky that I can play DCS with high settings, I feel that I bruteforce my way through the engine, as my computer - I7, 1080ti, 32GB RAM, SSD runs good but are strained at times and with loading times trough the roof.

 

While I do agree it looks really good (Im currently in VR, MSAA and 1.5PD ), the tradeoff of loosing a big chunk of the playerbase aswell as more or less killing the little multiplayer that already exists, is a really high stakes game.

 

Deffered Shading might be the way to go in the long-run, but Im wondering if ED didn't pull the trigger a bit early on this one?

 

Deferred is the Future, it's not that it does not Support Spatial AA, it's just that Spatial AA doesnt work well when it has to run AA on the Geometry Pass and the Lighting/Shading Passes.

 

 

From what I can tell DS is early experimental technology in this game and the real workable solution with purpose built models and Shader AA are theoretical and a long way off being practical.

 

It's a shame effort is going that way as IMO it doesn't look much better than running 2.5 with DS off and HDR on, both on a monitor and in VR except the fluorescent trees! If the trees could be improved without DS then why bother?

 

Deferred Shading is not Experimental, it's being used on Dozens of Major Graphics Engines.

 

Forgive me if this has been stated before and it sounds crazy, but is it possible to use traditional rendering in cockpit panels where detail and sharpness of the image really matter, (especially in VR), but use DS for rendering the outside world? This would potentially solve several of the major issues we're experiencing. WIN WIN!

 

The Cockpit and External Views all use the same Graphics engine, so no.

[SkateZilla]

Furthermore;

 

The Problem isnt Deferred Shading, the Problem is MSAA.

 

You can blame Deferred All you want, but with MSAA Off, the Performance is fine, w/ MSAA On, the Performance drops.

[Mars Exulte]

@Nake (regarding your questions to me in earlier post)

No, no, I agree it's not the same thing. Some stuff is harder to do, and depending on the aircraft it's hard to do anything. I just meant there's huge improvement, it's just not evenly applied and has some rough spots.

 

Replay? They used to be borked, but they supposedly fixed it a few patches back. Have you tried recently and it's messed up again? Regardless, they were live sessions showing off interior and exterior and the terrain, with aerial refueling. As you say, not the same as combat. That was also a couple months ago, before I sold my flight gear, so things may have deteriorated since then, too. I'll be down until next month, at least.

 

You can't get photoreal at all without paying for it, though. And like said, today's high end is tomorrow's bargain bin. You can't get too carried away, but I know folks with 970s, 980s, 1060s, etc, playing fine. Not in VR or 4k necessarily, but what we have is very useable, despite its flaws.

Edited May 18, 2018 by zhukov032186

[Charlie-1]

Furthermore;

 

The Problem isnt Deferred Shading, the Problem is MSAA.

 

You can blame Deferred All you want, but with MSAA Off, the Performance is fine, w/ MSAA On, the Performance drops.

 

Just to clarify, I did say DS is experimental in this game. I read it has been around since the 70s.

 

Performance hit or not, MSAA doesn't fix the fuzzy cockpit text in VR. I ramped PD up to 2 and it's still Illegible. For reference I am looking at the bottom left display in the F15-C. Switches and dials have a fuzzy glow around them too. This is crystal clear without DS and PD of 1.5 and no MSAA. Is this issue able to be improved?

Edited May 18, 2018 by NAKE350

[ac5]

Furthermore;

 

The Problem isnt Deferred Shading, the Problem is MSAA.

 

You can blame Deferred All you want, but with MSAA Off, the Performance is fine, w/ MSAA On, the Performance drops.

 

For me the problem has never been performance,

but the disastrous night / dusk cockpit lightning...

[Charlie-1]

@Nake (regarding your questions to me in earlier post)

No, no, I agree it's not the same thing. Some stuff is harder to do, and depending on the aircraft it's hard to do anything. I just meant there's huge improvement, it's just not evenly applied and has some rough spots.

 

Replay? They used to be borked, but they supposedly fixed it a few patches back. Have you tried recently and it's messed up again? Regardless, they were live sessions showing off interior and exterior and the terrain, with aerial refueling. As you say, not the same as combat. That was also a couple months ago, before I sold my flight gear, so things may have deteriorated since then, too. I'll be down until next month, at least.

 

You can't get photoreal at all without paying for it, though. And like said, today's high end is tomorrow's bargain bin. You can't get too carried away, but I know folks with 970s, 980s, 1060s, etc, playing fine. Not in VR or 4k necessarily, but what we have is very useable, despite its flaws.

 

Yes I tried replays this week in 2.5.1 and my plane crashed when it should have flown by over Caucasus.

 

Did you see my links in my post? Those games / sims look and play amazing for me.

[sslechta]

Replay was never fixed. It's been broken for several years. I've seen no mention in the forums that this is any sort of priority by ED.

[Mars Exulte]

Replay was never fixed. It's been broken for several years. I've seen no mention in the forums that this is any sort of priority by ED.

 

I just dug through the update threads for 1.5 and yeah, they were messing with tracks/replays in July 2017. I didn't have trouble with them the last time I used one, but that was months ago. Sounds like it's messed up again, then.

[sslechta]

Ha! Summer of 2017 was the time I wasn't flying. Makes sense. Thanks!

[msalama]

MSAA Off, the Performance is fine

 

Switch it off and live with the jaggies? Thanks, but no thanks. It's either AA on or unistall DCS for me.

[Dr_Arrow]

Switch it off and live with the jaggies? Thanks, but no thanks. It's either AA on or unistall DCS for me.

 

The same for me unfortunately, I've tried to get accustomed to the sim without AA, but I just cannot. Even on 4K monitor there are lot of jaggies and what is worse is the shimmering/flickering of cities/buildings and ground objects in general. FXAA or other post-processing cannot solve this and I've tried everything. Either AA or no DCS for me.

[OttoPus]

Switch it off and live with the jaggies? Thanks, but no thanks. It's either AA on or unistall DCS for me.

 

Same here, and the hardware required to step up to 4k with full details in multiplayer with good performance simply does not exist yet.

 

No go!

[Charlie-1]

Despite the great input on here I'm not sure if there has been any explanation for item 1) on my original post, which relates to the drop in resolution in VR, which is especially notable in the cockpit. I don't think this is an AA or PD thing as cranking them up doesn't seem to help. Can this be fixed or is it inherent with DS?

[Hippo]

** Not an Official ED Response **

(But I'll explain it for you without getting too technical)

 

Thank you for making the effort to post. I'd be really interested to know WHY the option to disable deferred shading was removed, and why it was removed now? Is it because new models are no longer being developed to work with the old method? I.e. is it because the F-18 and PG will not work with the old method?

 

I really would have liked to have kept the option to not use DS, even as a legacy unsupported option, and would have lived with glitches. Is there absolutely no option to leave it in for a while longer?

 

After waiting all this time for the F-18, it grates somewhat that when it arrives I have to run it with much decreased performance.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Hippo

[Charlie-1]

Thank you for taking the effort to post. I'd be really interested to know WHY the option to disable deferred shading was removed, and why it was removed now? Is it because new models are no longer being developed to work with the old method? I.e. is it because the F-18 and PG will not work with the old method?

 

I really would have liked to have kept the option to not use DS, even as a legacy unsupported option, and would have lived with glitches. Is there absolutely no option to leave it in for a while longer?

 

After waiting all this time for the F-18, it grates somewhat that when it arrives I have to run it with much decreased performance.

 

I think the new additions you mention above will work in 2.5, which still has the off switch. ..at least that's what it says in the description.

[Hippo]

I think the new additions you mention above will work in 2.5, which still has the off switch. ..at least that's what it says in the description.

 

 

If that's right, then you've just made my day!

[msalama]

WHY the option to disable deferred shading was removed

 

Allegedly because they had 2 separate rendering pipelines they would've had to support, had they kept both. Totally understandable that they picked the one with DS; alas, no go if they can't make it work with at least some kind of AA / jaggies and/or shimmer elimination. Because if not, I'm not a customer anymore either :huh:

[Charlie-1]

If that's right, then you've just made my day!

 

Definitely says "Requires DCS World version 2.5!" in red at the top of both product pages. :thumbup:

[Hippo]

Definitely says "Requires DCS World version 2.5!" in red at the top of both product pages. :thumbup:

 

 

OK. But IIRC, when a new module is released, a new version tends to be released to support it. Still, I hope you're right.

[Art-J]

OK. But IIRC, when a new module is released, a new version tends to be released to support it. Still, I hope you're right.

 

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but you know it's not going to happen. You're right that new game version will have to come to implement the airplane in the coremods directory but they can't "retrofit" the older build only (release) while leaving the newer one (Open Beta) behind. It's always the other way around.

 

"2.5" in the product description is a leftover from early-access period and it's just a general note for these customers who still use 1.5.8 for any reason - they won't be able to add new content to unsupported build anymore.

[Charlie-1]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but you know it's not going to happen. You're right that new game version will have to come to implement the airplane in the coremods directory but they can't "retrofit" the older build only (release) while leaving the newer one (Open Beta) behind. It's always the other way around.

 

"2.5" in the product description is a leftover from early-access period and it's just a general note for these customers who still use 1.5.8 for any reason - they won't be able to add new content to unsupported build anymore.

 

I think I'm going to wait and see what the feedback is like before my hand goes anywhere near my pocket for any more new products or updates on here, but hopefully it will come together in the end.

 

Edit.. Apologies.. Replays is working just fine if recorded and played back in 2.5.1. :joystick:

Edited May 21, 2018 by NAKE350

[Flighter]

Is Defered shading needed for PBR renderer ?

 

@SkateZilla :

 

I would love to see your answer to this question. As you wrote:

..... Thus PBR Requires Essentially Deferred Lighting and Shading to be Enabled....

Do you say that the Deferred Shading was the ONLY way to go for using the PBR material model ?

or to phrase it differently :

Is Deferred shading an absolute must for the PBR renderer ?

It seems that people are pushed to believe that to enjoy the new PBR renderer the Deferred shading method is required.

 

 

Another misconception (not very important though) that I see forming is that the PBR renderer is like the new miracle when it comes to CGI. Truth is that is much easier for the texture artist to produce good quality results. Which is good, because even novice "scinners"will be able to produce quality work. And that's about it. Like most other methods is full of compromises and assumptions and simplifications. They just look good, which brings again the issue of "perceived quality".

 

 

I would also love to hear your personal opinion on the rest of my ignored :( post :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3488191&postcount=49

 

Cheers

[Jinker]

soon every PC Screen will be 4K Regardless

 

This way of thinking is quite arrogant, and cuts out a large part of the player base.

I've just bought a 1440p and I don't see me changing it in years to come.

Not everybody has the money to afford a 4K screen, and moreover, not the money for a PC to pump enough frames into a 4K screen.

[Boris]

While I totally understand some of the annoyance here, I can completely understand why this move was made. The difference in lighting between "deferred shading off" and "deferred shading on was vast".

ED doesn't have the resources to support and balance two sets of lighting conditions.

 

Deferred shading off often looked terrible. I see many flaws in the new lighting, but I'm sure they'll be addressed.

Performance is also an issue, which I hope will get some improvements over time.

[Charlie-1]

While I totally understand some of the annoyance here, I can completely understand why this move was made. The difference in lighting between "deferred shading off" and "deferred shading on was vast".

ED doesn't have the resources to support and balance two sets of lighting conditions.

 

Deferred shading off often looked terrible. I see many flaws in the new lighting, but I'm sure they'll be addressed.

Performance is also an issue, which I hope will get some improvements over time.

 

I agree the lighting and colours can look good with 'DS on' and especially trees in Caucasus, but I think that is more down to how the maps have been created that way?

 

Considering the negative impact on AA, performance and night lighting etc, I'm sure there are a lot easier ways to enrich colours and enhance lighting, such as when flying with HDR on. When the sun is in view, there's suddenly an improvement in perception of depth and vibrance of colours. This effect may be altering gamma, but whatever it is it worth be a great if it could be switched permanently on and the level made adjustable.