MIP Waypoint Data Source

[Frederf]

Any chance of improving the data cartridge information filled from the mission editor?

 

Currently L/L is assigned from ME to MIP in the following way:

0 -> nothing

1 -> 01

2 -> 02

...

20 -> 20

21 -> nothing*

*Looks like isn't a 20 waypoint limit as expected.

 

The result is the initial position, ME waypoint 0, doesn't get loaded into the MIP at all. Ka-50 took a different approach assigning 0 to 1, 1 to 2, and so on. It means that all the waypoints are shifted by one but you do have the initial position stored which is very handy. Do real Mirage operators have the departing airfield as a waypoint? I would if it were me.

 

Bullseye is also important so it should probably get a waypoint as well instead of relying on it as a flight plan point, e.g. 01. So 01 is BE, 02 is initial position, and 03 is the first real waypoint. That would be a shift of two in numbering but the utility has to outweigh the one time confusion.

 

CP/PD, if point is a landing type. It's a shame DCS core doesn't allow multiple landing points (alternates) so you can capture runway data for multiple. It would be good to also capture CP/PD for takeoff type points, assuming takeoff type points get their own waypoint (see previous). CP should be true heading but MIP is recording magnetic currently.

 

L/G works just fine taking the ME points' position coordinates as MIP values for L/G.

 

ALT is not so good. Instead of waypoint altitude the MIP is being filled with elevations of the surface at the waypoint's location. Waypoints at altitude is useful and should be an option as set in the ME (surface or waypoint).

 

RD/TD should probably be populated by the RD as derived by the vector from the previous point. Right now it's blank. I don't know if this should be true or magnetic course, manual doesn't say. TD is more tricky. It should probably be auto-populated with the time difference between the points (or from the first point?) in the proper format. It probably needs to be activated to use but it's better that than empty zeros.

 

Delta L/G, Rho/Theta, Altitude. Delta data should be able to be entered in the ME in much the same way as the A-10C's waypoint attributes. If ME waypoint has a flight task bombing (triangle at the end of the string) the values should be auto-calculated from that. Integration!

 

DEC I don't know if it's really supposed to be global or per-waypoint. It's currently non-editable. Ideally the DEC would be auto-populated based on each waypoint's declination (yes it varies from place to place even in DCS) if that's how the real one works.

 

An example waypoint properties tab in the ME could appear:

 

Include Point {None, Bullseye, Initial Position, Both}

VTB N Point {00, 01, 02, 03...}

MIP Waypoint Data {1,2,3,4...}

Altitude {Waypoint, Surface, Entered}

Altitude {_}

Route and Time

Route {none, Computed, Entered}

Course {_}

Time Desired {none, Computed leg, Computed total, Entered}

Time {_}

Delta

L {_}

G {_}

Rho {_}

Theta {_}

Altitude {_}

[jojo]

ALT is not so good. Instead of waypoint altitude the MIP is being filled with elevations of the surface at the waypoint's location. Waypoints at altitude is useful and should be an option as set in the ME (surface or waypoint).

 

I understand you can find it weird, but it isn't a bug, it's a feature.

That way you can see where the waypoint is on the ground, and perform INS update if necessary.

It's up the pilot to manage his altitude.

[myHelljumper]

Any chance of improving the data cartridge information filled from the mission editor?

 

Currently L/L is assigned from ME to MIP in the following way:

0 -> nothing

1 -> 01

2 -> 02

...

20 -> 20

21 -> nothing*

*Looks like isn't a 20 waypoint limit as expected.

 

The result is the initial position, ME waypoint 0, doesn't get loaded into the MIP at all. Ka-50 took a different approach assigning 0 to 1, 1 to 2, and so on. It means that all the waypoints are shifted by one but you do have the initial position stored which is very handy. Do real Mirage operators have the departing airfield as a waypoint? I would if it were me.

 

I would not want it, I don't find it useful as you have to enter your own coordinates for alignment.

 

Bullseye is also important so it should probably get a waypoint as well instead of relying on it as a flight plan point, e.g. 01. So 01 is BE, 02 is initial position, and 03 is the first real waypoint. That would be a shift of two in numbering but the utility has to outweigh the one time confusion.

 

Again would not want it, allow me to have a blank INS/order my waypoints as I want

 

CP/PD, if point is a landing type. It's a shame DCS core doesn't allow multiple landing points (alternates) so you can capture runway data for multiple. It would be good to also capture CP/PD for takeoff type points, assuming takeoff type points get their own waypoint (see previous). CP should be true heading but MIP is recording magnetic currently.

 

I would have to check but I think the MIP cartrige can't provide the INS with CP/PD data,not sure on this one, will have to check.

 

L/G works just fine taking the ME points' position coordinates as MIP values for L/G.

 

ALT is not so good. Instead of waypoint altitude the MIP is being filled with elevations of the surface at the waypoint's location. Waypoints at altitude is useful and should be an option as set in the ME (surface or waypoint).

 

As said above, this is intended.

 

RD/TD should probably be populated by the RD as derived by the vector from the previous point. Right now it's blank. I don't know if this should be true or magnetic course, manual doesn't say. TD is more tricky. It should probably be auto-populated with the time difference between the points (or from the first point?) in the proper format. It probably needs to be activated to use but it's better that than empty zeros.

 

Again, I think the RD/TD can't be provided by the MIP cartrige.

 

Delta L/G, Rho/Theta, Altitude. Delta data should be able to be entered in the ME in much the same way as the A-10C's waypoint attributes. If ME waypoint has a flight task bombing (triangle at the end of the string) the values should be auto-calculated from that. Integration!

 

Again (again), I think it can't be provided by the MIP cartrige.

 

DEC I don't know if it's really supposed to be global or per-waypoint. It's currently non-editable. Ideally the DEC would be auto-populated based on each waypoint's declination (yes it varies from place to place even in DCS) if that's how the real one works.

 

From my understanding real one would be for the plane (not specific to waypoints) and editable inflight

 

An example waypoint properties tab in the ME could appear:

 

Include Point {None, Bullseye, Initial Position, Both}

VTB N Point {00, 01, 02, 03...}

MIP Waypoint Data {1,2,3,4...}

Altitude {Waypoint, Surface, Entered}

Altitude {_}

Route and Time

Route {none, Computed, Entered}

Course {_}

Time Desired {none, Computed leg, Computed total, Entered}

Time {_}

Delta

L {_}

G {_}

Rho {_}

Theta {_}

Altitude {_}

 

You would have your answers in the French manual that is available online, I will try to check this evening.

[jojo]

TD isn't really convenient to use.

From what I understood (and I'm not even sure) you enter in the PCN a time to go to the waypoint (not the time on target, but the time to fly to) and use the "TOP" button on PCA to activate speed guidance in the HUD.

 

I think the MIP should be able to be fed with CP/PD.

You should be able to feed the BAD too, can be used not only for bombing, but also alternate airfield.

 

You can align on PREP 00, but you can also align on any waypoint. So it isn't totally useless to be able to feed the parking spot coordinates into the MIP.

[myHelljumper]

You can align on PREP 00, but you can also align on any waypoint. So it isn't totally useless to be able to feed the parking spot coordinates into the MIP.

 

I see your point, but I don't think it should be this way by design.

[Frederf]

I understand you can find it weird, but it isn't a bug, it's a feature.

 

The correct simulation is that the operator can write any number he wants into the MIP for the altitude. While best practices for France AF may suggest entering the surface elevation that only suggests that this be the default of other options.

 

TD is really awkward to use to the point that I wonder if it really works in a slightly different way. Perhaps the TD number counts down on the PCN when activated or activation happens when you press RD on PCA instead of when you INS button on the PCN.

 

Actually I'm not sure exactly what action activates the countdown timer. I'm curious what the designer envisioned TD would be used for when he designed it. Was it general navigation, AA intercept, low-level AG strike? But whatever TD value goes into the MIP it doesn't matter if it's only a tiny, tiny bit useful in rare occasions it's still better than all 0s.

 

As for including the departing airbase in the waypoint selection I wasn't thinking of the parting L/G specifically but rather the L/G associated with the airbase which is how the Ka-50/A-10 does it. Of course airstart/groundstart with no associated airfield would use the actual position.

 

Personally if I was really flying the Mirage I would want a coordinate exactly on a taxiway intersection that I would pass through during departure to accomplish a squat fix. A squat fix is an INS update done stationary when on the ground which checks/updates both your position but also zero velocity (system assumes <X knots is stationary). Really it strains credibility if you departed an airbase and had an emergency or had to return there would be no waypoint in the system to reference.

 

It's really not useless to have origin point as a point in the system. You can INS update to it, reference it to return to base, compare it after return to check drift totals. I don't understand what you mean "you can align to 00" because you have to align initially to 00; there's no other option.

 

I think the MIP should be able to be fed with CP/PD.

It currently writes any landing-type point CP/PD data of the runway's magnetic heading (should be true?) and 3 degrees PD. It would be nice for it to write that data to all waypoints which might benefit. Perhaps MIP can't record multiple CP/PD for each point. Maybe it can only record 1 CP/PD and to-which-waypoint-that-applies (or it might have to be the last point). I don't know.

 

You should be able to feed the BAD too, can be used not only for bombing, but also alternate airfield.

 

Good thinking about other uses for BAD. I was only thinking about targeting but you can navigate to ingress or egress or alternate or whatever.

[jojo]

Waypoint altitude:

By default, the PCN is fed with waypoint topographic altitude, which is known use by French Air Force.

But you can edit the waypoint altitude and feed almost what you want.

Almost, because by design, the max waypoint altitude you can assign is 25000ft. (p133 of DCS M-2000C manual).

 

This shows that it isn't designed to input flight plan altitude (the fighter easily cruise at FL360 and more).

 

And if you feed flight plan altitude, what is the use ?

You don't have any altitude guidance in the HUD.

ALT AFF auto pilot mode is to be used manually (altitude input + climb angle + throttle management)

 

PNC RD option is activated by "RD" on PCA in NAV mode.

PCB TD option is activated by "TOP" on PCA in NAV mode (not functional yet).

 

I think the purpose of TOP is to coordinate TOT on one waypoint (I want to be there in XX minutes).

I agree it isn't the best function, there is probably better on more recent fighters...but it is what it is !

[Frederf]

It is not up to DCS to make the decision how I will use the airplane. I am the operator, he is not. I do not have to convince anyone if it is a good idea. If altitude of point can be set a value then the simulation must allow it. This is the purpose of a simulator, to mechanically duplicate an object without judgement.

 

By the way, you do have altitude guidance in HUD. BUT cross is floating in space at altitude. One arrives at it simply by putting TVV symbol on cross. Campaign included specifically tells you to set waypoints at flight plan heights in at least one mission.

 

I cannot get RD to work but TD does function. When I enter a TTG in PCN and engage TOP energy chevrons are beside curved brackets similar to approach. When chevrons are central in curved brackets then I am on schedule.

[jojo]

It is not up to DCS to make the decision how I will use the airplane. I am the operator, he is not. I do not have to convince anyone if it is a good idea. If altitude of point can be set a value then the simulation must allow it. This is the purpose of a simulator, to mechanically duplicate an object without judgement.

 

By the way, you do have altitude guidance in HUD. BUT cross is floating in space at altitude. One arrives at it simply by putting TVV symbol on cross. Campaign included specifically tells you to set waypoints at flight plan heights in at least one mission.

 

I cannot get RD to work but TD does function. When I enter a TTG in PCN and engage TOP energy chevrons are beside curved brackets similar to approach. When chevrons are central in curved brackets then I am on schedule.

 

Then edit your waypoint altitude with whatever you want (but < 25000ft).

It's easier than to manually plot ground altitude for each waypoint for whoever is interested in using it the way it's designed to be used.

[Frederf]

I can't edit the MIP. Real operator can, DCS operation can't.

[jojo]

Yes, I know: IN THE COCKPIT WITH PCN...

 

Do you have a MIP editor with DCS A-10C ???

 

By the way you didn't acknowledge the fact that the max waypoint's altitude in the PCN is 25000ft.

So what would be the use of feeding your flight plan altitude in the PCN, appart from "yes I can" ?

 

However, I agree a MIP editor (which to the best of my knowledge isn't a DCS standard feature) would be great to have.

It would allow to save time in the cockpit, keep relevant data from one mission to another in campaign and so on.

It would be the cherry on the cake.

Edited May 5, 2018 by jojo

[Frederf]

DCS A-10C has a MIP editor. You can edit some of the properties of the waypoints as they appear in the data cartridge. More control would be better.

 

Let's reboot our thinking and reevaluate the situation from basic axioms:

 

• MIP is a tool that improves the utility of the airplane by transferring convenient and prepared data
  
• Maximum utility from MIP occurs when its values may take on any allowed value according to the system's parameters
  
• Intelligent defaults and shortcuts minimize workload such that no interaction produces the most commonly-desired result
  

Question checklist for how a particular value be exposed to preparation:

 

1. What is the quantity?
   
2. What are the allowed values?
   
3. What is the most sensible default value?
   
4. What are alternate values sourced from the sim?
   
5. What are user-sourced values?
   
6. What is the most compact and usable interface to allow input?
   

The above can reduced to a simple motivation. "Program MIP to its full ability without being more trouble than it is worth." The situations to avoid are "This takes so much work to set up; I hate it." "Why won't this dumb thing let me do what I know it's capable of?"

 

For example take the DEClination value and apply the question checklist to it:

1. Declination

2. -30° to +30° increments of 0.1°

3. Source declination at given waypoint's position and date

4. None

5. Manual entry

6. Manual entry checkbox, normally unchecked with numerical text field and arrows which step by 0.1°.

 

I made up that example. I have no idea what declination value limits or increments are or even if DEC is a value that is waypoint-specific. It was just for illustration.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Frederf

[jojo]

I'm not challenging the utility of a "MIP editor".

 

Unfortunately, you're supporting an interesting request with some wrong examples IMHO.

- Waypoints altitude => currently it's very conveniently made to minimize preparation workload.

- DEC => No, it isn't attached to any specific waypoint (p74 of RL Mirage 2000C RDM manual).

 

Anyway, this will be (hopefully) reviewed in a near future with inputs from EC 2/5 pilots :thumbup:

Edited May 5, 2018 by jojo

[kobeshow]

I believe the fact that the WP uses AGL as elevation input has also something to do with how the PCN/INS is tied into bombing. Elevation differences between PI and target are required for a good solution.

[jojo]

Early mission preparation computers (off course today it doesn't look like that :D) and video of the actual MIP.

 

I saw the same kind of things in a British Tornado video from the 80'

 

[Frederf]

That's really cool. I wish the video was clearer so we could read the screen. Computer X/Y clicker over a paper map, it's certainly not 0.01' accuracy.

[jojo]

That's really cool. I wish the video was clearer so we could read the screen. Computer X/Y clicker over a paper map, it's certainly not 0.01' accuracy.

 

You’re right :thumbup:

 

But for air defense missions they don’t need so much accuracy.

AG attack mission are prepared with 1:100 000 map. So I bet the accuracy is there.