G3 Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Fufunka, i have followed the discussions about the domes and curved screens with blending etc that you have posted before, i love the idea, especially the domes. i have a projector, would build a dome and get a mirror if i understood that we could do it for lockon. to warp the image mesh seperate to the game is what i am wondering. i wish i understood it enough to help make it come true :) currently the th2go, zoomed out to near normal view is just too demanding for my system so sacrifices are required in the graphics department. on the side screens you get some distortion and that interferes with your depth perception, for example looking at an airport from say 5miles @ 5k alt, it will appear to be closer on the left and right, and further away in the centre view, making you think you needed to turn in quicker when landing etc if you see a strip from the side view you quickly adapt but it would be much better if the depth of field could remain constant. point being: if we can have a partial dome, the same basic rectangular shape of the projectors resolution (16:9) along with the "remapped image mesh" to match the dome. i am guessing the above issues might be resolved? the dome pics posted earlier looked pretty bloody good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fufunka Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Hi GGG87> I'm glad there is some interest in this immersive technology, please specify what you are after: For the passive warping system> one pj & mylar mirror there will be always some distortion because as you can see from the Bourke projection/setup examples, you can't twist the mirror all the way in 3D fashion all that much. But the MSFS people have relatively good results with the approach, the slight distortion is acceptable for the immersive factor and low/no price of the setup. For the active/software warping system> we need either a/ support directly from the game engine (ED still silent on this one) or b/ from the mod community like the author of SoftTH who is experimenting with some post rendering image warping techniques (i.e. the main video card renders the image be it classic widescreen or the high res triplehead surround and all those warping changes are applied after that, but not fps ideal) For plain TripleH2go/SoftTH> this mod could be combined with warping and/or edge blending mainly for simple yet very effective high FOV cylindrical projections. That's what we should be primarily after in my opinion because you don't need special screens for it, the needed software workflow and code is known etc. From the hw standpoint the only extra cost is the 3x pj setup but there are lot of chinese diy lcd pj nowadays. So you can have it for the price of one flat 40" TV.. For spherical/half sphere> the best approach is to start with cubic map projections, i.e. taking those different 4-6 views and producing one "fisheye" image. This image goes to one pj and mylar mirror sphere for example from some security camera system etc. Now this needs for good performance support directly from the game engine. And I doubt ED will offer it to us anytime soon. I've got the feeling this might be even restricted by the version they sell to the military. This last spherical approach is the most immersive one, but the dome construction, and software support make it probably the most distant solution at the moment for diy people and the ED engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3 Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 the later spherical approach most distant is the one i would like to be closest too :D but the passive warping method, pj and mirror is looking to be the best current solution. lets just think about this a little. the projected image hits the curved mirror, and then bounces back to the screen at twice the angle it hits the mirror at, basic reflection principal as i understand it, with me? so the mirror curve will be somewhat relative to the screen arc, and i therefor imagine the fit of the picture to the screen would be adjusted by the distance and angle between the projector and the mirror, yes? if that makes any sense then this has some serious potential, and some serious possibility, with a certain degree of probability, of happening that is :D i think the projector @ 1280x720 would be quite good for this arc theory. any ideas on where to get such a bending mirror? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fufunka Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Passive warping projection system> Pls. refer to the links in other threads, the MSFS guys used for their home jumbo cockpits one particular type of flexible mylar sheet mirror but I think you can use any general type used in furniture/home decoration/design which could be bended a bit. I think they mentioned on their forum the specific vendor for these mylar mirrors both in the US and EU. In terms of price that's just a few euros per the required small rectangular sheet. In terms of the actual setup/dimensions for this passive style - you can either have: - the crude MSFS method - warp it inside the frame by hand and screws as on those pictures of actual setup and tweak the shape accordingly to your projection setup dimensions (distance from the screen/pj etc.) and/or - calculate the whole setup beforehand in some simple *3D app., use the Bourke's drawings/examples how to proceed. That's how you get the most precise dimensions. So perhaps for permanent setup a particular more advanced shape of the mirror could be then sourced out in some company doing these spherical plastic mirrors to order. Ask optics/home/furniture decors/astro amateurs etc. they will guide you on the local market. Cylindrical projections 101: http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/cylinder/ The whole immersive topic here: http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/%7Epbourke/projection/ -- *software for designing diy projectors (light paths) might be usefull for these calculations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fufunka Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 This is basically the passive system in a nutshell: #1,2,3 The first two pics show the jumbo cabin facing curved projection screen and the pj. The mylar sheet is curved and fixed in the frame. The third pic is the same concept but different simpit. #4 The last pic is from completely conceptual different setup, for our purposes here just focus on the cylindrical screen (disregard the top section). This is very smart "curtain hack" how to have cylindrical projection from two curved tubes and sheet => very diy and low budget as well as space compact/disassemble ready for non permanent setups.. More links here: http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=305821&postcount=30 http://www.a340project.us/gallery10.htm The MSFS/mylar mirror sheet guys hang around this thread: http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1251&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120&sid=bc892fda7eec68ebf935fe5485b25b84 Very nice TripleH/3x pj style setup, the black out for the rest of the room makes a big difference! http://www.projectmagenta.com/dreamflight/news2007.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3 Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 ok i am inspired, i never saw that a340project setup in detail before, thanks.. good effort, see the detail in everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3 Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 Passive warping projection system> Cylindrical projections 101: http://local.wasp.uwa.edu.au/~pbourke/projection/cylinder/ the pics 3 and 4 in this link show the corrected mesh hitting the flat screen in a rectangle shape pushed up from the base and the sides on an angle, making the top bigger than the base, this making the image look in perspective on the radius of the curved screen. i know the pj has vertical keystone correction which can make the top bigger than the bottom, i wonder if the curve of the mesh would be achievable with the mirror... this is getting interesting :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fufunka Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Unfortunately you can't wrap it 100% exactly into this shape without some slight distortion. It could be manufactured that way though as a section/partial sphere but that would be only for one particular setup. But the best solution is obviously the Bourke method - to have it enabled in game engine as software warping, so every setup could be easily changed via parameters for individual pit/pj/screen setup. Lets hope one day the sim developers will acknowledge that it's more important to spend few hours on coding this immersive feature (again couldn't stress more that the code and workflow already exists!) than on fiddling forever some other perifferal issues.. Mod> this feature could be coded as a mod with some slight fps loss but with today hw performance (SoftTH example) perfectly feasible. You have to take the rendered output image from the video card and warp it according to input parameters and then send to output (second card or the same card in dual head mode). Some DirectX skilled coders to volunteer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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