Jump to content

AGM-122 Sidearm - Accuracy (lacking?)


Thisdale
 Share

Recommended Posts

Greets everyone,

 

Question regarding the effectiveness/Accuracy of the Sidearm.

 

I'm trying various simple scenarios with a few Anti-Air vehicles.

 

Right now, i'm using the Tunguska SA-19 as targets.

 

The issue is; the accuracy rating of a AGM-122 against those, with a straight line of sight, is of 1 out of 4 missiles.

They -very often- over-shoot the target by about 50 meters.

 

I've tried shooting from 4,000 to 8,000 feet and it seems to do about nothing.

 

 

Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/konotani

 

Computer Specs:

 

Z97X-gaming Mobo

4670k i5

24G DDR3

GTX 1080

Asus PG278Q Rog Swift 27-INCH G-SYNC

Valve Index

Thrustmaster Warthog

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals (used as Rudders)

Thrustmaster T300 Arcantera Wheel

Obutto R3volution rig

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should mention that i've tested this with AIs (various skill levels) and as a player in a Multiplayer server (client).

http://www.youtube.com/konotani

 

Computer Specs:

 

Z97X-gaming Mobo

4670k i5

24G DDR3

GTX 1080

Asus PG278Q Rog Swift 27-INCH G-SYNC

Valve Index

Thrustmaster Warthog

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals (used as Rudders)

Thrustmaster T300 Arcantera Wheel

Obutto R3volution rig

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what Razbam's intended behavior for the missile is, but IRL they are not super accurate missiles. They SHOULD be missing very often.

 

More than anything, anti-rad missiles are designed to be self defense weapons so that when you're being locked you can launch a sidearm, and force the radar operator to go offline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what Razbam's intended behavior for the missile is, but IRL they are not super accurate missiles. They SHOULD be missing very often.

 

More than anything, anti-rad missiles are designed to be self defense weapons so that when you're being locked you can launch a sidearm, and force the radar operator to go offline.

 

Ok that is interesting (i didn't know).

 

An interesting way for Razbam to do this would be to shut off the SAM radar then (which is not the case at the moment).

 

In any case, i understand why they were not renewed and rather discarded. At the moment, i'm trying to do missions with SEAD in mind (and the Harrier, of course) and its pretty much useless.

http://www.youtube.com/konotani

 

Computer Specs:

 

Z97X-gaming Mobo

4670k i5

24G DDR3

GTX 1080

Asus PG278Q Rog Swift 27-INCH G-SYNC

Valve Index

Thrustmaster Warthog

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals (used as Rudders)

Thrustmaster T300 Arcantera Wheel

Obutto R3volution rig

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally fire multiple sidearms at a time. Given the widely-speculated low damage they inflict, I figure it should be fine. Just double tap the trigger--no additional lock required.

 

Viewing TacViewer, I have seen a wide variety of outcomes. In some cases, there have been times at which a single Sidearm knocked out a SAM. Other times, I fired a full volley of four, only one or two hit, but the SAM is still operating. I have even seen a SAM hit, remain functional for a full minute, and finally catch on fire & become destroyed. As I recall this was after two hits with the Sidearm. I think these missiles are really just a last-resort / nosebleed distance type of solution, and I always fire them in pairs at this point in my trial-and-error.

 

Here is my typical procedure for express delivery with maximum customer satisfaction of Sidearms to SHORT-RANGE SAMs (i.e. SA-8, or less than 10 miles). Different SAM-types may require different tactics, but this is my technique. I have not really tested this against long range SAMs.

  1. Flying at altitude, my RWR shows a SAM pop up. I immediately select the "SA" OSB option on the MFCD, also making a reflexive check that the master arm is enabled.
  2. DIVE at about 30-40 deg to treetop level while turning to face the threat. Cut the throttle to prevent overspeeding / over-G. Extend speed brakes if going over 550 kts.
  3. Pop chaff if you want, but I don't think it makes much difference during this ingress.
  4. On the way there, your Sidearm may or may not lock on to the radar signature; do not fire until instructed to do so, below.
  5. You might also get locked by the SAM; this is okay, as they still need to wait for you to get into firing range. He'll lose track as you get closer (keep reading, below...). Additionally, your Jammer may activate if equipped and the ECM dial on front right panel is set to RCV.
  6. At this point you should be practically on the deck, speeding towards the SAM.
  7. On your way to the SAM, while flying at treetop level, your RWR should indicate that you are no longer locked. This is good; curvature of the earth, and all that sciency stuff (I think...).
  8. Looking at your HUD, you will see a line pointing to the SAM. If it has a small arrow/carot under the line, then you are being locked. If the line to the SAM is just a straight line with no caret at the bottom, then you happy because you are not locked.
  9. Patiently follow this line flying towards the last known location of the SAM. Double check your master ARM is enabled (i.e. no blinking SA text on the HUD). At some point, the RWR will indicate that you will get locked again. I.e. the caret will show up at the bottom of the line to the SAM, again.
  10. At this exact moment, pull up to about 1k-2k AGL, roll inverted to keep SAM in-sight, and (your SA's should have lock by now) fire off a couple of them making sure the seeker heads have line of sight on the radar signature. In other words just make sure the dashed-circle SAM icon is on the HUD. Don't launch the Sidearms during your instantaneous climb, as they will overshoot just a little bit. Also, there is no need to wait for second lock; just double-click that trigger. Quadruple-click for four missles if you have engaged "extreme prejudice" mode.
  11. Immediately dive again to treetop level, and put the SAM on your 90-degree angle.
  12. Pop chaff again to feel even more special.
  13. At full speed and treetop level, GFTO.
  14. Once "safe"-ish, look over your shoulder for black smoke, and check to see if the RWR still shows the SAM.
  15. Rinse repeat, or mark the location for standoff weapons like Maverick.

It should also be noted that during all these turns, you need to watch your G's. I try not to go over 4-5 G with full load of Sidearms.

 

Following this I tend to get a successful kill a little over half the time. Better than nothing, and flying at treetop level while being chased by missiles is pretty fun, so that's nice.

 

It should be noted that as of the current state of the AV-8B, you can fire off a couple of SA's, circle around, and fire off additional ones without re-locking. Read: there is currently no need to deselect/reselect Sidearms. After that first lock, just fire and forget. Not sure if they will change this, but there ya go, for now.

 

Good luck!


Edited by NeoHelios



VF-111 Sundowners

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

 



F-16 Viper :: F-14 Tomcat :: F-18 Hornet :: A-10C Warthog :: AV-8B Harrier II :: AJS-37 Viggen :: Ka-50 Black Shark

 

vCG-1 callsign: Cloudy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More than anything, anti-rad missiles are designed to be self defense weapons so that when you're being locked you can launch a sidearm, and force the radar operator to go offline.

 

I'm not sure about this statement. Unless the radar operator actually sees the anti radiation missile launched, he would have no idea it was on it's way towards him as it is completely passive. This applies to not only the Sidearm, but most others as well. It's true though, that if the radar operator suspects that there are anti radiation missiles being carried around by the enemyt, they might be more sparing with their radiation!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sad part of this is; i was very excited to finally get a NATO plane that performs SEAD duty.

 

If the current accuracy rating of the 122 is good indication, that's not a very effective SEAD platform :(

 

So we'll have to wait for the F18.... sigh

http://www.youtube.com/konotani

 

Computer Specs:

 

Z97X-gaming Mobo

4670k i5

24G DDR3

GTX 1080

Asus PG278Q Rog Swift 27-INCH G-SYNC

Valve Index

Thrustmaster Warthog

Fanatec Clubsport Pedals (used as Rudders)

Thrustmaster T300 Arcantera Wheel

Obutto R3volution rig

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading through this http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12009/the-agm-122-sidearm-came-to-be-from-a-novel-missile-recycling-scheme

 

And comparing to the performance I’ve seen from the Sidearm, I notice a lack of pop up maneuver in close, which has caused me to lose a few to trees in close. I also notice a lack of peripheral damage, which may come down to the damage modeling. The exploding rod should at least take out the dish if not destroy the vehicle.

 

I’ve never seen it pop up, but after 3 missiles into an SA-6 radar, it did stop functioning despite still looking intact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about this statement. Unless the radar operator actually sees the anti radiation missile launched, he would have no idea it was on it's way towards him as it is completely passive. This applies to not only the Sidearm, but most others as well. It's true though, that if the radar operator suspects that there are anti radiation missiles being carried around by the enemyt, they might be more sparing with their radiation!

 

 

 

Sam operators in Vietnam were able to detect Shrike launches and switch off their radars. In particular they were able to detect the metal particles emitted by its rocket motor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if the accuracy is correct. But think about why the AGM-122 was called SIDEARM. It was meant for self defence and not dedicated SEAD missions. It was also mounted on helicopters for that reason. It is a very cool and exotic addition to the Harrier, but there is a reason why it's not around anymore irl. The range is too low, payload too weak. But can in a tight situation get you out of trouble against older types of short range radar guided AAA and SAM systems.

 

I don't expect a rebuilt lightweight sidewinder with a small seeker to be very reliable, except maybe in an open desert environment with very little ECM or other emissions present. Just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might be an issue with the Tungs themselves. We have experienced multiple bugs with them in a multiplayer setting, specifically our server. We've noticed the following:

 

- no RWR signal when she boots up

- no visual missiles, just an exploded Harrier

- Sidearms landing nearby, but not on Tungs

 

Now, I will say that example I personally witnessed witht he Sidearm landing nearby might have been a terrain issue as it was launched from extreme range per the DME set point, and the Tung was in a ravine of sorts.

 

I have personally experienced the other two bugs.

 

~Rob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing to think about is the missile tracks the actual radar emitter on the vehicle (like a tunguska etc) and not the vehicle itself. I have seen my sidearms track the radar emitter and this fly a little but high (maybe a meter or two) over the radar antenna on the Tunguska and thus explode behind the vehicle.

 

I know in Vietnam there was the issue of Shrikes being almost too accurate as the missile would knock the radar off the top of the radar truck and explode behind the vehicle, knocking out the radar but not destroying the truck

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Spudknocker DCS World YouTube Channel!!

 

RTX 2080 Ti - i7-7700K - 32GB RAM - DCS on 1TB EVO 970 M.2 SSD - Logitech X56 HOTAS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In particular they were able to detect the video separation of missile signal from carrier signal on the radar scope while tracking the carrier.

 

No 'metal particles' or other mumbo-jumbo. Let's face it, 'metal particles' have nothing on 'huge chunk of metal'. ;)

 

Sam operators in Vietnam were able to detect Shrike launches and switch off their radars. In particular they were able to detect the metal particles emitted by its rocket motor.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because it's a SIDEwinder-based ARM?

 

And i presume sidewinder name came cause most of the time they are mounted or only able to be mounted on side stations or wing tips stations, never inner wing stations or fuselage stations?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All those saying the Pk should be low...

 

It is low IRL because SAM operators turn off their radars and are then no longer a threat to the aircraft. In DCS it is a low Pk while the SAMs are actively emitting and shooting missiles at you, so it doesn't make sense for them to miss at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... did they even have time to turn off their radars or even know they're being attacked with ARMs at the ranges that thing would be used? It doesn't exactly have a long battery operating time IIRC.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... did they even have time to turn off their radars or even know they're being attacked with ARMs at the ranges that thing would be used? It doesn't exactly have a long battery operating time IIRC.

 

Probably not, but maybe. Definitely not useful in the traditional SEAD role but for DCS it's all we have right now. I don't even think they were ever used in combat so no real Pk record. Seems everyone is basing Pk based off historical HARM usage, which of course includes numbers that lost homing due to radars going offline, which leads me to believe they should have better performance in game.

 

My guess is their inaccuracy is just due it being a WIP though, not designed by razbam to be bad, so can't be upset yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well.....I can attest to this now. Tungs are back on the menu on our server and myself and a shipmate attacked one. We were getting the signal, and his radar was on the whole way the Sidearm was headed in - we baited, my wingy was high and close, I was in the weeds and trail. I popped up to about 7k in a zoom, pushed her over and fired a Sidearm. Terrain was flat where the Tung was, the missile sailed over the top of the Tung by about 4ft / 1 meter

 

~Rob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RE Rolands, I launched about 4 Sidearms last night over 2 flights, took out 2 Rolands. Not bad. I knew where they were so pre-emptively lobbed a sidearm in that direction before it locked me. Seemed to work OK! Will try a more pop up style next time VS boom & zoom.

Oculus CV1, i7 4790k @ stock, gtx 1080ti @ stock, 32gb PC3-19200 @ 2.4ghz, warthog & saitek pedals, razer tartarus chroma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In particular they were able to detect the video separation of missile signal from carrier signal on the radar scope while tracking the carrier.

 

No 'metal particles' or other mumbo-jumbo. Let's face it, 'metal particles' have nothing on 'huge chunk of metal'. ;)

 

 

Maybe you should tell that to Peter Davies , because on page 45 of his book "F105 vs SA-2" he says:

 

"Missile crews also realised that they could track incomming Weasels on radar, watching for one into a climb to loft a Shrike at them and then turn off the radar. They realised too that the Shrikes exhaust gases contained tiny metal fragments from its solid rocket fuel. These gave a strong enough radar trace to provide warning of an oncoming missile"

 

:thumbup:


Edited by whiteladder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...