ECM Blinking

[Prophet]

Your reply still doesnt make any sense. What does RL have to do with it considering the PRF and such of RL is not modelled to that degree.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Why is it that you have replied, by first deleting one of your posts, then editing the subsequent post no less than 3 times? So much for "honesty". :megalol:

 

If you would like an explanation of how radar works, I will be more than happy to provide you with that. I'm sorry, but simply saying "your reply still doesn't make sense" doesn't cut it. It is obvious you don't understand radar, so just ask, instead of being condescending and trying to treat someone who doesn't agree with you as an idiot. Now...would you like an explanation of radar, and the term PRF? It seems you like to use PRF a lot, as if you know what it means, but the rest of your sentences about it suggest that you are just name-dropping. Seriously, would you like me to explain it to you?

[Prophet]

Uh, what does it have to do with honesty? There is no need to attempt to insult people. Read what you quoted me, and then read what I then posted, pretty close. Genius....

 

Who cares how radar really works, and believe me I dont need an explanation from you.

 

Not sure how you gather I dont know how radar works, when all I have said is, IT DOESNT MATTER CAUSE THIS ISNT RL. But you cant seem to get that. I am not treating you as an idiot, I am merely saying what you are talking about doesnt matter to the current topic.

 

But go ahead and try to explain RL radar and PRF to me, even though it doesnt matter. Waste your breath, you wont be telling me anything I dont already know. Seems to me you just want a feather in your hat. When you are done, i will then explain to you what a mitchelson double pass interferometer is, what optical diffraction is, why we must use CaF optics for 193nm lasers, because that all has as much relevance as what you are trying to talk about.

 

Did you even read what I wrote, sheesh.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I'm signing off now, as I have real aircraft and real sensor issues to deal with tomorrow. Have a great evening, gentlemen. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

Did you even read what I wrote, sheesh.

 

Which of the 4+ times are you referring to? Unfortunately, I read more of what you wrote than you ever wanted to say, apparently. The rest of your last post speaks volumes about what you want. You apparently aren't interested in reality, except when it works to your advantage, and have no interest in learning anything about the real world. This is a pretty clear-cut case of the s****y carpenter blaming his tools. You know what you have to deal with...so suck it up, ya friggin' whiner. :D

[Prophet]

I am very interested in reality, unfortunately that has nothing to do with this topic.

 

If you wish to discuss how RL radar, ECM and ECCM works, by all means start another thread.

 

But you are trying to pull all that into this topic as if it matters.

[Prophet]

You know what you have to deal with...so suck it up, ya friggin' whiner. :D

 

Not sure why you think I havent dealt with it. Quite easily actually. There are more than a few A2G servers, and I for A2A I fly with respectable people who dont see a need to use an exploit.

[OldFrankHog]

Haha someone needs to make a shirt saying "Blinking on since 1.02" :megalol:

[Weta43]

Play nicely boys.

 

After reading all this thread ( & not having a whole lot invested in the argument 'cause I only play offline) it seems fairly obvious that programming your hotas to do something ingame that the programmers never intended you be able to do (& gives you an advantage over people who only use those features that were intended by the programmers) is cheating & I haven't seen any arguments that make this anymore sportsmanlike than just hitting printscreen whenever you feel threatened.

 

The whole 'prf rate' thing is a red herring given that the prf in lockon is non existant because there's not realy a radar there anyway - it's just a setting that increases or decreases your ability to detect or 'lock' targets at different aspects & ranges.

 

There's no radar in lockon. There's no ECM in lockon.

 

There's a model of radar in lockon & macroed ECM blinking breaks the model for those with a programmable hotas.

 

A few people have said it's fair because things like track IR or a hotas (generaly) give a player with (spare cash) an advantage over those without

But -

Track IR costs money, and improves SA, but with practice a player can acheive the same result with the mouse or a hat switch (Pilotasso - that's you isn't it?).

A hotas setup costs money improves the players ability to maintain SA while manipulating the controls, but a player without a hotas can practice & achieve a similar level of competence.

Programming a macro to strobe the ECM so fast that no human could ever emulate it with any level of practice is a whole different ballgame.

It's not letting you do something easier or better, it's introducing a new (unintended by the developers) feature that is only available to players with programmable hotas ...

[OldFrankHog]

Im totaly with you but if im not mistaking from what i read the blinking doesnt have to be ultra fast to work. I think twice per second is enough to make it impossible for anyone to lock you outside of burn through range.

 

The thing i dont like about the blinking is that it shouldnt make it impossible for you to lock or fire. No one as yet answered this question but in real life does an ECM make it completly impossible for an enemy to lock or launch on you ? I believe not it might make it harder or less reliable but not make you completly invulnerable to a shot.

 

The fact that in Lomac blinking makes you invulnerable is simply a bug. As this bug was evidently not intended by the developers using it to ones advantage is of course an exploit.

 

Like many said I believe the solution is to live with it till its fixed and play where it isnt allowed/used. Anyways if anyone has some knowledge on ECM and would like to answer my question I would be pleased :)

[Weta43]

I think twice per second is enough to make it impossible for anyone to lock you outside of burn through range. [/Quote] - oldfrankhog

 

Without showing a jamming strobe?

 

Cycling by hand is fine - the problem is

a macro that cycles it on and off so fast it doesnt even show the strobe on the radar?[/Quote] - Prophet

 

So your opponent doesn't even get an indication what you're doing & - you don't light up like a xmas tree while jamming - which non-hotas people do...

 

edit

 

I'm not an expert but from memory tha kind of jamming supposedly being modelled should allow a HOJ shot (effectively as an anti-radiation missile).

 

(presumably - in reality - in a HOJ shot, if the jammer stops its signal briefly, then starts again, the seeker - seeking that signal - should be able to re-aquire & continue tracking as long as the target hasn't left the seeker's 'field of view' - just as for a lost lock with a SARH missile that's re-aquired before the target leaves the seeker's field of view, which means cycling it on & off over a short period of time increases the seeker's chance of re-aquiring the target?(the faster you cycle, the more of a continous emmitter you become))

[51GRIZZLY]

One thing is using this ( Call it Cheat, exploit or whatever ), another thing is

what to do about it.

 

No one here has given it a thought on how ECM blinking should be prevented on

a public server.

 

There are no means to hinder ppl doing it either by using the index finger pressing

the "E" key one or two times a second ( wich by some people seems to be OK )

or by using a macro or a script.

 

You can prohibit it in your Briefing but when hard pressed some will use it anyway,

and then what?

 

How would you sanction it ?

Call the server admin demanding the "Cheater" to be banned?

 

The server admin has no way in hell to controll if those accusations are correct cause flashing

jammers wont show on the debrief screen like illegal ( Loped ) payloads would.

 

So unless hes on the server all the time controlling if the server rules are obeyed,

he would have to make his decition ( To Ban .... or not to Ban ) :) on accusations alone

 

The only way you can try to prevent the use of Flash Jammers is asking ppl to act like gentlemen and

NOT to use them ...... unfortunately history shows this approach seldom works :(

 

So you might aswell allow it and let people learn how to deal with it until ED comes up with

a solution.

 

It prevents any misunderstanding ( did he press "E" ? or did he use a script? ) and it prevents

the server admin from getting an Ulcer.

 

just my 2 cents

[Kenpossible]

ECM blinking is completely legitimate. The only problem with that is, we're getting more and more reports of seizure attacks: players starting to manifest foam coming out of their mouth and twitching with spasms.

 

I, the chief medical expert on ECM blinking-related seizure attacks, would like to recommend all Lockon players not to use it too often or to avoid public servers where it's being overused.

 

Dr. Kenpossible

Chief Medical Expert for seizure attacks

[GGTharos]

 

The only way you can try to prevent the use of Flash Jammers is asking ppl to act like gentlemen and

NOT to use them ...... unfortunately history shows this approach seldom works :(

 

 

We should just have a gentleman's BVR server.

 

-You get to fire one SARH at 20nm.

-You may only use F-Pole

-No terrain Masking

-No ECM

-No Chaff

-No Notch

-Must be Co-alt at time of shot

 

Best F-Pole wins. :D

[Pilotasso]

Explain to me then why is it that on certain servers we dont see it but very rarely, while on others its a fest. You can ask but not force anyone to stop using it, however when the servers squad owners use it at their will, theres no other way to survive than get to that level.

 

If you own the server, Whatever standards you choose to play, those will be passed on to the guests. Thats how I see it. 169 server for example had excellent tactical missions where the large majority of poeple played it without exploit spam.

 

In 504 I stoped using radar but sneaking peoples on their backs with EOS

and have been called a lamer for that by some of the exploiters... Go figure!!:dontgetit:

 

Im going to start shooting ET's first, not R-77's like I have most of the times. ;)

[GGTharos]

Sneaking up on people isn't gentlemanly after all!

My only beef there has been people who loiter around airfields and vulch at will. It's encouraged by the mission setup essentially.

 

As for tactical missions, they only count when you take out air-quake enabling elements.

 

When things get tactical, they get 'boring'. That gets rid of lone rangers one way or the other, and opens the way for organized flights on both sides.

 

No one has attempted to really do so, so far. AFAIK - at best, 'both' were on the table at the same time.

[Pilotasso]

No vulching, I simply frequent routes often taken by the enemy such as the now known "Mount Cougar" :)

 

I would have been long banned from there if I had.

[GGTharos]

No vulching, I simply frequent routes often taken by the enemy such as the now known "Mount Cougar" :)

 

I would have been long banned from there if I had.

 

I didn't mean you vulch - there are just certain people that make it a habit to fly up to the other side's base, hang around near it safe from the SAMs thanks to the mountains, and watch aircraft take off - and ET them.

 

Their own base is, of course, not too far, and on flat land - much, much harder to attack.

 

All that aside from the fact that the mission clearly states 'no vulching'.

[GGTharos]

Would you like a whamblulance? There's one nearby.

[159th_Dorsk81]

Game Exploits

 

The debate on ECM Blinking has got me wondering. Are there any other game exploits that you would like to comment about?

[GGTharos]

The only service you're getting is a whambulance. You're on your own for the rest. ;)

[GGTharos]

Well, if the whambulance is an exploit, I guess I'm guilty as charged ... :D

[tflash]

For me, this is not so much about cheating, since I don't play online that often: it is more about realism, our mutual friend.

 

I want avionics to feel more real, more "electric" than just digital. OK some super-advanced fifth generation ECM gear could maybe activate in a blink of an eye, but I seriously doubt an ALQ-131 pod is something you just switch on and off like that.

 

It would be so much nicer if it had a little startup delay or something and made a little "bzzzzzz" sound or so, no?

 

ED did a wonderful job with the Su-25T avionics spinning up on power on, why not go furthe rin that direction?

[Zuki]

Brb ... getting some popcorn , this is great!

[GGTharos]

For me, this is not so much about cheating, since I don't play online that often: it is more about realism, our mutual friend.

 

I want avionics to feel more real, more "electric" than just digital.

 

And to some degree that will be simulated in the Ka-50.

 

OK some super-advanced fifth generation ECM gear could maybe activate in a blink of an eye, but I seriously doubt an ALQ-131 pod is something you just switch on and off like that.

 

I think you're missing the point. You don't turn the whole pod on and off already.

 

It would be so much nicer if it had a little startup delay or something and made a little "bzzzzzz" sound or so, no?

 

Sound aside, that's one possible fix for the blinking - there might be more interesting methods of dealing with the issue too though, that would plain make BVR more dynamic - but it depends entirely on taking control away from the player (which is fine, because that's how it works in RL) ... basically all you can do is give the jammer permission to do its work, or to stop - beyond that, wether lock is dropped, BT achieved, etc - would be dynamically decided, or at the least, randomly.

That would be an ideal fix without the need to completely rewrite the code.

 

ED did a wonderful job with the Su-25T avionics spinning up on power on, why not go furthe rin that direction?

 

 

It's coming. But you know that this sort of stuff only goes into new things.