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ECM Blinking


ECM Blinking  

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  1. 1. ECM Blinking

    • Yes
      18
    • Never
      33
    • Depends On The Server Rules
      8


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I just want to start a debate on this issue. Last night on the 504 server it got a little heated on the subject between a couple of pilots. I personally do not use the technique during a BVR engagement, and I have adjusted my tactics to match pilots who do use it. I would just like to know your views on the subject. I have raised the matter before with other pilots privately but I feel it is time to bring the subject out into the open again. I look forward to reading your views on this matter.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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What is this technique? Turning the ECM on and off repeatedly? what's the problem with that?

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What is this technique? Turning the ECM on and off repeatedly? what's the problem with that?

 

Blinking ECM will stop your opponent from getting a Lock. Using this technique means you can get your missiles off long before the enemy has even had a chance to Lock you up let alone fire a missile off. Not exactly sure of the mechanics of it. Perhaps someone can explain it with a bit more detail.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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I don’t think there is much to debate, how you use ECM is up to the pilot. Same holds true with using flares or chaff, sometimes they help and sometimes they don’t. Flashing your jammer (turning it on and off) is up to the pilot; some people don’t like it and say “you’re cheating”. I would say flying low using ridge lines or hill tops to break locks is cheating too…but I don’t. It is a tactic that you could and would use in real life. If the ECM has a on and off switch (and it does)…then you can use it. Again how you use it is up to the individual pilot.

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Just preventing this thread from going into a flame war, lets keep away from personal attacks out. Cheers!

 

Ill post mine later if this goes the right way.

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I don’t think there is much to debate, how you use ECM is up to the pilot. Same holds true with using flares or chaff, sometimes they help and sometimes they don’t. Flashing your jammer (turning it on and off) is up to the pilot; some people don’t like it and say “you’re cheating”. I would say flying low using ridge lines or hill tops to break locks is cheating too…but I don’t. It is a tactic that you could and would use in real life. If the ECM has a on and off switch (and it does)…then you can use it. Again how you use it is up to the individual pilot.

 

Hiding behind terrain cover is a real life tactic, I'm not so sure about ECM blinking the way it's done in Lock on. The only true solution is for ED to do something about ECM/radar modeling, I'd say until then it's up to the server host to say if it's ok or not.

 

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I don’t think there is much to debate, how you use ECM is up to the pilot. Same holds true with using flares or chaff, sometimes they help and sometimes they don’t. Flashing your jammer (turning it on and off) is up to the pilot; some people don’t like it and say “you’re cheating”. I would say flying low using ridge lines or hill tops to break locks is cheating too…but I don’t. It is a tactic that you could and would use in real life. If the ECM has a on and off switch (and it does)…then you can use it. Again how you use it is up to the individual pilot.

 

Thank you for your post. I thought the blinking of ECM was a defect within the game itself (Please someone from ED clarify). I am not sure if it is a real world tactic. If your ECM is on then it is possible for you to be locked by an enemy. If it is off you can still be locked by an enemy. But Blinking on and off you can not be locked. Which means you can get a missile off first. Your opponent at this time has gone defensive. What I want are peoples views. Using terrain masking and flares to hide is not cheating. This is because they are real world tactics. But I am no expert in radar systems and countermeasures which is why I am putting this up for discussion.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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There ya go - Andy has it right.

Simple thing:

 

ECM Blinking works

+It is easy to use

--------------------

= Live with it.

 

 

ED will address this eventually, and break this inane behaviour. I will make a number of suggestions that will require minimal implementation to address the problem. Until then, I'll be using it, everyone else will be using it, so deal; the game gives you plenty of option as is to deal with the issue. You can gain altitude and maddog your missile (or, in a Russian bird, you have ridiculous speeds and ranges for the missiles, so you can maddog'em at any altitude) or you can break away and not deal with the bandit.

 

There's nothing that's remotely unfair about this technique - because you can VERY EASILY do it, too.

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I suggest instead of loosing lock, the transition from STT to HOJ to be donne automaticaly just as it is on reverse.

 

If its from TWS to HOJ even better!

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My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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Thank you for your post. I thought the blinking of ECM was a defect within the game itself (Please someone from ED clarify). I am not sure if it is a real world tactic. If your ECM is on then it is possible for you to be locked by an enemy. If it is off you can still be locked by an enemy. But Blinking on and off you can not be locked. Which means you can get a missile off first. Your opponent at this time has gone defensive.

 

So you get your missile off, your opponent 'blinks' and your missile's wasted. So? :)

And yes, real self-protection jammers 'blink', but not like the inane blinking we see right now. First off, they won't even fire unless the aircraft is locked onto, and then they will jam only THAT threat. Jammers cannot jam everything, and they cannot jam in all directions at the same time - this isn't simulated in LO. For example, real F/A-18C can jam the 3 top threats simultaneously. That means 3 distinct radar sources. If you're not one those sources, you will not be jammed!

 

In addition, in reality, the jammer may or may not work, depending on how effective opponent's ECCM is (sometimes ECCM will work, sometimes not) and it may attempt to simply break your lock, or it may attempt to deceive, like for example provide wrong closure - since missiles use closure as a term in PN guidance, they will miss with the wrong closure.

 

What I want are peoples views. Using terrain masking and flares to hide is not cheating. This is because they are real world tactics. But I am no expert in radar systems and countermeasures which is why I am putting this up for discussion.

 

So then, using extremely low altitude to not be hit by missiles IS cheating? Because no air to air fighter is going to waltz into the fight at under 10m in A2A, under just about any circumstances.

Dodging missiles head-on, flying low and dropping a trail of chaff while head-on with your target, maddogging missiles (IR or radar) at long ranges (any ranges for IR) are also not real tactics. Are all those cheating?

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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There ya go - Andy has it right.

Simple thing:

 

ECM Blinking works

+It is easy to use

--------------------

= Live with it.

 

So does using Print Screen. But I wouldn't dream of using it... Keep em coming people.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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I suggest instead of loosing lock, the transition from STT to HOJ to be donne automaticaly just as it is on reverse.

 

If its from TWS to HOJ even better!

 

Yes, that would be the simplest solution. Another one would be to automate ECM - ie. turning on ECM turn on the whole system, with a corresponding warm-up time (say 1-2 sec) and shut down time ... your jammer then sits quiet until you are locked, and when locked, it turns on and stays on until un-locked. Simplest jammer logic possible, and the 'warm up' and 'shut down' times prevent manual blinking at the ridiculous intervals certain people program into their HOTAS.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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So does using Print Screen. But I wouldn't dream of using it... Keep em coming people.

 

Don't try to compare Print Screen with ECM blinking. ECM blinking is imminently defeatable - just get close enough.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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ECCM was overdue ever since 1.1

 

Without it the game is incomplete. ;)

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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There won't be any 'real' ECCM for BS. Maybe just a solution to this particular problem, that's all. But this too might not be quite as simple as we think it is - there are other entities aside from MP players that are effected with ECM, and this change will affect them too.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Don't try to compare Print Screen with ECM blinking. ECM blinking is imminently defeatable - just get close enough.

 

Yes. I would agree with you on that. But regarding using Terrain masking in an A2A engagement, surely you can not be accused of cheating by using this. I use terrain masking to avoid ground threats not other fighters. I like to have a height advantage before launching missiles. But to please all types servers have a mixture of ground based systems that could quickly spoil you day. If I see a mountain range and a ground based radar system has me locked then I'll use it to mask my radar cross section. I would pain me to think that I was in some way cheating.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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No, not terrain masking :) Flying at 10m altitude where a radar-guided missile cannot track you. Specifically, a missile launched by another aircraft that has you locked /all/ the time. Try it.

 

And yes, we know from RL that this doesn't work quite so 100% ... there's a truck kill by an F-15 with an AIM-7 ... the AWACS thought the truck was a helo. The truck was driving fast enough to exceed the F-15's notch gate, so the AIM-7 tracked and killed the truck.

 

Yes. I would agree with you on that. But regarding using Terrain masking in an A2A engagement, surely you can not be accused of cheating by using this. I use terrain masking to avoid ground threats not other fighters. I like to have a height advantage before launching missiles. But to please all types servers have a mixture of ground based systems that could quickly spoil you day. If I see a mountain range and a ground based radar system has me locked then I'll use it to mask my radar cross section. I would pain me to think that I was in some way cheating.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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And yes, we know from RL that this doesn't work quite so 100% ... there's a truck kill by an F-15 with an AIM-7 ... the AWACS thought the truck was a helo. The truck was driving fast enough to exceed the F-15's notch gate, so the AIM-7 tracked and killed the truck.

 

Yikes!! when did this happen?

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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No, not terrain masking :) Flying at 10m altitude where a radar-guided missile cannot track you. Specifically, a missile launched by another aircraft that has you locked /all/ the time. Try it.

 

And yes, we know from RL that this doesn't work quite so 100% ... there's a truck kill by an F-15 with an AIM-7 ... the AWACS thought the truck was a helo. The truck was driving fast enough to exceed the F-15's notch gate, so the AIM-7 tracked and killed the truck.

 

I understand and I would agree. Flying at 10metres above the ground is just plain silly. It is something I would not do anyway.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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I don’t think there is much to debate, how you use ECM is up to the pilot. Same holds true with using flares or chaff, sometimes they help and sometimes they don’t. Flashing your jammer (turning it on and off) is up to the pilot; some people don’t like it and say “you’re cheating”. It is a tactic that you could and would use in real life. If the ECM has a on and off switch (and it does)…then you can use it. Again how you use it is up to the individual pilot.

 

Completely agree.:thumbup: ECM blinking is not cheating but rather utilizing the already available option in LOMAC but much more efficiently.

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Yikes!! when did this happen?

 

1991 Gulf War, IIRC. It's a pretty old story, so unfortunately I can't recall the source :(

 

It's up there with AIM-7's tracking landing MiG-25's (however, in this case, the 7's missed - they impacted near the MiGs when they touched or were touching ground)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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ECM Blinking

 

I personally do not use the technique during a BVR engagement, and I have adjusted my tactics to match pilots who do use it.

 

Very Intersting So far.

Only the spirit of attack born in a brave heart will bring success to

any BVR or Dogfight no matter how highly developed the fighter may be.

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Print Screen is an exploit and is cheating. Blinking the ECM is just annoying but I gotta agree that you just have to deal with it. I also don't like being missile spammed but then again that's just how things are.

Scripting it gets pretty close to an exploit tho, you've basically added a new ECM feature with external software.

 

But since it probably can't be proven, it might be better to just let it go so everyone can do it.

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