Jump to content

Help with avoiding missiles


tmdgm
 Share

Recommended Posts

Need any help avoiding missiles. I started in an Su-27 and was getting wiped. Switched to an F-15 and it is easier, but I still get wiped. I’ve watched Ironhand’s vids and they help some. So I thought I’d ask one specific scenario at a time and hope I get better.

 

What is the best method to avoid a missile if your opponent fires at a good ~5000 feet below you, at range of ~5.0-7.0 nm (we are facing each other and closing, he is ascending, I am descending slightly, throttled back)? Once he fires, I put the missile at my 3-9 oclock and dive popping chaff flares. I get toasted every time.

 

I’ve tried various random combinations of some ideas below, no luck:

1) Is it better to turn opposite direction and climb since he’s so far below you, although he is fairly close?

2) Or put missile at 3/9 and climb instead of dive?

3) Or just do spiraling circles making a big trail of chaff and flares? Every time I dive in almost any direction or putting the missile at 3/9, I get wiped.

4) Maybe dive with missile at 3/9 and then split S the opposite direction when missile is 2.0 nm popping chaff/flares?

5) How bout full afterburner and climb towards his bearing so you are trying to go over top of him, this way the missile has to climb and arc backwards, (though not sure you’d get over top of him in time) .

 

Another thing, get too fast in an F-15 (since I’m descending in the 3/9) and it turns/maneuvers like a stuffed pig so the split S might be tough.

 

Any help appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hah ... I am going to get long-winded ... I'll try not to :D

 

Need any help avoiding missiles. I started in an Su-27 and was getting wiped. Switched to an F-15 and it is easier, but I still get wiped. I’ve watched Ironhand’s vids and they help some. So I thought I’d ask one specific scenario at a time and hope I get better.

 

Perfect. A specific scenario is good.

 

 

What is the best method to avoid a missile if your opponent fires at a good ~5000 feet below you, at range of ~5.0-7.0 nm (we are facing each other and closing, he is ascending, I am descending slightly, throttled back)? Once he fires, I put the missile at my 3-9 oclock and dive popping chaff flares. I get toasted every time.

 

This is because your maneuver is only a good start of an evasive maneuver.

 

A few tips:

 

1. FIRE BACK!

2. Be at corner speed. For pretty much all fighters this will be between 350-450kts (650-830kph) indicated.

3. Don't maintain a single maneuver - that's really asking for it.

4. Throw out chaff and flares like they are unlimited.

5. Try not to be in burner. A heater will be more likely to go for that than your flares. Sometimes you can't help it though.

 

I’ve tried various random combinations of some ideas below, no luck:

1) Is it better to turn opposite direction and climb since he’s so far below you, although he is fairly close?

 

No. Missiles are less sensitive to chaff when looking up (radar missiles that is)

 

2) Or put missile at 3/9 and climb instead of dive?

 

In general, a missile being shot as you from this range cannot be out-climbed.

 

3) Or just do spiraling circles making a big trail of chaff and flares? Every time I dive in almost any direction or putting the missile at 3/9, I get wiped.

 

That's better - but don't go into a spiralling circle. Roll inversted, and dive like this to put the missile on your 3-9, then roll inverted again and pull down hard. Unload (let go fo the stick) then roll the plane WITHOUT pulling back on the stick (fastest roll, and it gives you speed) roll in the opposite direction and PULL. Think of it as a vertical S. You're throwing chaff and flares out while doing this.

 

4) Maybe dive with missile at 3/9 and then split S the opposite direction when missile is 2.0 nm popping chaff/flares?

 

If you're going to run away from the missile, ie. turn tail to bandit, do it BEFORE he's within 7nm.

 

5) How bout full afterburner and climb towards his bearing so you are trying to go over top of him, this way the missile has to climb and arc backwards, (though not sure you’d get over top of him in time) .

 

You'd never make it.

 

Another thing, get too fast in an F-15 (since I’m descending in the 3/9) and it turns/maneuvers like a stuffed pig so the split S might be tough.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Get out of burner - use high-G dive to control yoru speed. This comes with practice. it will be hard to do at first but you -can- do it.

 

Remember, fight missiles with aspect, and fight missiles out of plane.

 

If you are doing a flat turn, you are in-plane. 'Flat turn' means a turn in ANY direction ... left right, up/down ... without change of direction. You are always in plane if you do this.

Every time you change your turn, the missile must do so also - this causes it to burn speed, so it takes longer to get to you (flies longer path) and when it gets to you, it might not be able to keep up with high-G maneuvering.

 

Because of missile guidance, if you are in the same turn all the time, the missile does not have to maneuver much to reach you.

 

The missile will ALWAYS steer to a collision with you - that is, a point is spare STRAIGHT AHEAD of you. Do WHATEVER you can to move that point around a LOT.

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, a beam followed by a max G pull-up a couple seconds before the (anticipated) impact works almost every time. For some reason, the missile always passes safely below your aircraft.

 

So basically, beam, dive, and a few seconds from impact pull up (and *keep* pulling up) until the missile passes below you. Try to time it so that you're roughly at the same altitude as the missile when you start your pull up, and then just keep pulling back on that joystick.

sigzk5.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you are flying the Su-27, a high G turn a few "bars" form Missile impact almost always evades the missile.

 

The su-27 is better in some ways, while it does not have ARH missiles, it's threat warning reciever tells you when the missile is fired and how far it is from your aircraft. (Measured in signal strength.) When the first missile is fired at you, wait a few more secconds, fire, then turn either left or right and descend slowly. turn as far as you can so long as you maintain radar lock. when the missile is on the second to last bar of the signal strength indicator on the TWR, rool into the bandet and do a mox-G turn. the missile will always miss. If your missile has not hit, fire again now. he has probobly fired another one at you now too! You should now begin climbing slowly, keeping him locked. (this should be to the other direction of your last turn.) when his missile is on the THIRD to last bar, (because the missile hes more energy and an earlyer turn is necessary) Preform another Max G turn to evade the missile. fire a third missile if he is not yet dead.

 

Hope that helps. I'll make a track if you want it.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, thanks for the quick response. Don’t worry about long winded, more detail, the better. I need all the help I can get and no matter how mad I’ve been, I’m just not ready to give up on this game (although it’s been close). It would be nice to survive a few missions.

 

GGTharos

 

Actually, I did fire first. I just kept the post to avoiding once he launches.

 

Trying to visualize your maneuver, you’re basically putting the bandit (also is it missile or bandit since it’s SARH?) at your 9 oclock for example on the first invert. Then you invert again and pull down (back?) hard. How long to pull back? Basically until the missile is now at your 3 oclock so you just did a split S? Then roll opposite, which is now ‘into the bandit’ and pull back when the missile is within x distance? That’s what I’m visualizing. If so, do you recommend this every time or only when missile is so far below as this would be an extra split S compared to ironhands?

 

Scythe

 

 

I think that’s what is in Ironhand’s video. So beam and dive, keep speed at corner (350-450 kts), then bank 20 deg (per iron hand) and pull up hard G? Any rudder or aileron while doing the pull back? I know you said to try to time it when missile is at same altitude (although may not be possible in this scenario with such an altitude difference), is there a certain distance from missile to start pulling up? Say 1.0-2.0 nm? No greater than 2.0 nm but no less than 1.0 for example? I also assume you’re dumping chaff/flares while pulling back?

 

Aeroscout

 

 

Yeah, I noticed that with russian rwr vs american. That does seem like a distinct advantage for the RWR to tell strength of signal for the SU-27. Although, does that respond the same with Sparrow’s since the radar is actually from the launch aircraft?

 

Also, how much to roll into the bandit? Iron hand said 20 degrees, then pull hard back. Any rudder or aileron or just pull hard back? Since I’m not in an SU-27, how do I know when to pull back? 2.0 nm? I’m thinking there is some failsafe distance (I have icons on) that you better be pulling back or it’s too late. Conversely, there’s probably a distance where pulling back too soon won’t help.

 

Does this maneuver change if the missile is above or below?

 

I may take you up on that track.

 

Thanks for all the help.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, i'll make the track. I'll keep you posted.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone should put a sticky up for these FAQ's

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forget missile distance. Last thing you want to do is staring at some label telling you the missile distance. Turn'em off! ;)

 

No, don't do a full-spit-S. Change directions while you are pointed straight at the ground, that's what I mean. You could also just put the missile on your 9-3 and pull up, then roll inverted, pull down, roll upright, pull up ... though at the range you are describing that might not help - at longer ranges, it'll kill the missile's speed.

 

Basically, you want to do VIOLENT maneuvers.

 

That means you want to go DOWN.

 

Down is good because:

 

Your counter measures are more effective

You can beam

You get to build up ro conserve speed

your engines output more thrust

 

That means: you can continue doing violent maneuvers.

 

Wow, thanks for the quick response. Don’t worry about long winded, more detail, the better. I need all the help I can get and no matter how mad I’ve been, I’m just not ready to give up on this game (although it’s been close). It would be nice to survive a few missions.

 

GGTharos

 

Actually, I did fire first. I just kept the post to avoiding once he launches.

 

Trying to visualize your maneuver, you’re basically putting the bandit (also is it missile or bandit since it’s SARH?) at your 9 oclock for example on the first invert. Then you invert again and pull down (back?) hard. How long to pull back? Basically until the missile is now at your 3 oclock so you just did a split S? Then roll opposite, which is now ‘into the bandit’ and pull back when the missile is within x distance? That’s what I’m visualizing. If so, do you recommend this every time or only when missile is so far below as this would be an extra split S compared to ironhands?

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here they are!

 

Ok, i just made the tracks.

 

the first one is the Su-27 one. I outlined the evasion techniques in my previous posts.

 

The F-15 one is not very helpful as i simply tossed enough missiles into the air to keep the MiG-29 too buisy. (dumb AI) :joystick:

 

If you would like more, I'm more than happy to make them. (come to think of it, it was kinda fun! :D)

 

EDIT: GG also has good points, but you should still look at the missile distance in the corner of your eye. (or in our case, the corner of the screen) A violent menover just before the missile reaches you will make the missile miss 100% of the time if executed properly.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And this is where I will give my warning: You might not need to unlearn bad habits soon, but ... modern air ot air missiles don't behave like Vietnam-era SA-2's.

 

LOMAC's will become more realistic. There won't be a 100% if this works out.

 

 

EDIT: GG also has good points, but you should still look at the missile distance in the corner of your eye. (or in our case, the corner of the screen) A violent menover just before the missile reaches you will make the missile miss 100% of the time if executed properly.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, sorry, jeez. this is a good stratagy for current lockon. and i wasn't getting pissed at you. actually, I liked your advice. I was simply adding my tip to it. And you cant say that one or the other is better than both at the same time, mm?

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't think you were getting pissed at me. I'm just giving you a warning that missiles will change and they will be much harder to deal with - it might be good to learn how to do it right :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, i'll practice. and i didnt know how missiles will be in BS, so i cant base my advise on that. However, right now, most of us have FC and and this technique works in FC. Hence my advise. I'll definitaly try your technique though. Keeping radar lock will be difficult.

 

But i'm sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into an argument. sorry.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically, you want to do VIOLENT maneuvers.

 

Current G modeling will not allow you to do this. The rapid change of G's alone will make you blackout in critical most incovenient times. EVen if your max G attained is not that high, some 6 G's.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No problem, we're not arguing.

 

You are right about the lock, but, at 7 nm ... seriously. your missile better get him cause that's the one shot you get at him.

 

Ok, i'll practice. and i didnt know how missiles will be in BS, so i cant base my advise on that. However, right now, most of us have FC and and this technique works in FC. Hence my advise. I'll definitaly try your technique though. Keeping radar lock will be difficult.

 

But i'm sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into an argument. sorry.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Current G modeling will not allow you to do this. The rapid change of G's alone will make you blackout in critical most incovenient times. EVen if your max G attained is not that high, some 6 G's.

 

Wait, so just a violent menovers will make you blackout faster than if you were to start a gradual turn and continue to pull into a 9G turn?

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No problem, we're not arguing.

 

You are right about the lock, but, at 7 nm ... seriously. your missile better get him cause that's the one shot you get at him.

 

Ok, good, glad we got that straightened out. I'll definitaly going to practice more then. i'm going to need it when BS comes out.

 

Thanks.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, so just a violent menovers will make you blackout faster than if you were to start a gradual turn and continue to pull into a 9G turn?

 

Its a mix of both but theres a sense that the pilot blacks out easier than IRL. ED implemented some sort of diferential G over time wich increments to the G effects aside from absolute present G load. Im not arguing RL you wont suffer from this because you do. But I think the data they based on is relative to untrained unprotected personnel.

 

AF training cantrifuge center will make pilots endure G tests where the AF Aprentices will siffer G loads with and without G-Suit. And then They elaborate charts based on this Info. Me thinks we got the rejects data from the AF LOL :D

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya, you do seem to black out a little too early/easially. it gets really anoying at times.

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is why a bunch of servers are switcing to the reduced G-model. Notice that on the 504? ;)

 

Current G modeling will not allow you to do this. The rapid change of G's alone will make you blackout in critical most incovenient times. EVen if your max G attained is not that high, some 6 G's.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Current G modeling will not allow you to do this. The rapid change of G's alone will make you blackout in critical most incovenient times. EVen if your max G attained is not that high, some 6 G's.

Which is why a bunch of servers are switcing to the reduced G-model. Notice that on the 504? ;)

 

No :rolleyes: :music_whistling:

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

is the "reduced" option actually more realistic than "realistic?" in the "realistic" option, i cant redout, no mater what i do, but in reduced, i can. what's the deal here?

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest I have no idea. ED thinks "realistic" is...well realistic,was probably taken from generic data of trainees without G suit (like simple human studies of direct G impact). "Reduced" me thinks is a fictional data set with interpolated or arbitrated data. ED is convinced the first is adequate, but independently of it being correct or not, the second option was not scientificaly based so I still do not know if its more correct or not than the first. Most likely both arent because of each reasons I mentioned above.

 

Further more G tolerance is the same for all aircraft wich is not correct and reinforces my theory that the model ED has at hand is not from real life piloting conditions, but to what I just said about generic trainee data.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok... i'll keep it where it is.

 

GG, is this improved in BS?

DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...