Flight model not great...

[blast]

You can see him trimming it quite frequently.

Nice video, which proof that the pilot don't use trim at all during take off and landing which was exactly my point of this thread :thumbup:

 

The moments when he use the trim control is when auto-pilot is activated which is not for trimming purpose. :music_whistling:

 

And about your previous post, the criteria "the sim is realistic when the plane is not easy to control" is absolutely... bullshits! Ask real pilots what they think about the gazelle in dcs for example, they will answer that they would crash if gazelle was that hard in reality!

[jojo]

Nice video, which proof that the pilot don't use trim at all during take off and landing which was exactly my point of this thread :thumbup:

 

Yes he does from 1'58", but the video is accelerated.

 

Now, once you're correctly trimmed for final approach (14° AoA), there's no point to come back to the trim. He won't flare with the trim.

[blast]

Yes he does from 1'58", but the video is accelerated.

 

Now, once you're correctly trimmed for final approach (14° AoA), there's no point to come back to the trim. He won't flare with the trim.

 

But he's not using trim at all during take off. And at 00:58 we can see the auto pilot is ON which means he used the trim control for the AP most of the time. In the end the AP light is hidden by countermeasures box during approach which is impossible to say if AP was still ON.

 

But you dont have to convinced me with this kind of documents. I would be 100% sure the day i will fly a real m2000C by myself :D

(and im already get used to the new flight model in dcs)

[Martini]

Nice video, which proof that the pilot don't use trim at all during take off and landing which was exactly my point of this thread :thumbup:

 

The moments when he use the trim control is when auto-pilot is activated which is not for trimming purpose. :music_whistling:

 

And about your previous post, the criteria "the sim is realistic when the plane is not easy to control" is absolutely... bullshits! Ask real pilots what they think about the gazelle in dcs for example, they will answer that they would crash if gazelle was that hard in reality!

 

That wasn’t my criteria, I assume English is not your first language, but in very simple terms, it’s more realistic if it’s more like the real life version, regardless of whether that is perceived as harder or easier than some alternative.

 

As for the video, The pilot would be trimmed for takeoff then let go of the stick and the autopilot would engage and correct the trim if needed, so yes....he didn’t need to touch the trim. Same with landing, trimmed for 14 deg aoa, lands. I think you’re just confusing how the AP and trim are supposed to be used. The plane is incredibly easy to control, I think you’re doing something wrong if you think the amount of trimming needed to fly is making the pilot workload high... you can also always double tap the AP. Try flying the SU-27, that’s a lot more intensive when it comes to trimming.

 

In general, if you’re not in combat, use the AP and trim isn’t necessary, if you’re in combat there is a minimal amount of trimming needed if at all because you’re constantly maneuvering, changing aoa, speed etc. and not trying to trim for 0 pitch rate or a certain aoa at every given moment (because that would make it harder to make your next maneuver accurately or quickly). Landing and occasionally when I have asymmetrical stores are the only time I find myself trimming, otherwise it’s AP or maneuvering hard.

[blast]

"DCS aims to model aircraft as accurately as possible, if you don't like that and would like something easier, there is always ACE Combat and War Thunder"

when and where did i say i wanted something easier? You are confusing my post with the others guys' post.

 

"As for the video, The pilot would be trimmed for takeoff "

The pilot "would"... But in the facts, when do you see him doing this action in the video?

 

"I think you’re just confusing how the AP and trim are supposed to be used."

Then in which part you are not agree with me when i said : "The moments when he use the trim control is when auto-pilot is activated which is not for trimming purpose."

 

"you can also always double tap the AP."

You can even do it with one tap by pressing "AP standby" during the manouevre and release when you are done

 

"In general, if you’re not in combat, use the AP and trim isn’t necessary, if you’re in combat there is a minimal amount of trimming needed"

Hmmm no, it is the opposite.

 

"Landing and occasionally when I have asymmetrical stores are the only time I find myself trimming"

ok but we were talking about pitch trim not rolling.

[=Pedro=]

Silence! I kill you! ;)

[bzhnono]

"DCS aims to model aircraft as accurately as possible, if you don't like that and would like something easier, there is always ACE Combat and War Thunder"

when and where did i say i wanted something easier? You are confusing my post with the others guys' post.

 

"As for the video, The pilot would be trimmed for takeoff "

The pilot "would"... But in the facts, when do you see him doing this action in the video?

 

"I think you’re just confusing how the AP and trim are supposed to be used."

Then in which part you are not agree with me when i said : "The moments when he use the trim control is when auto-pilot is activated which is not for trimming purpose."

 

"you can also always double tap the AP."

You can even do it with one tap by pressing "AP standby" during the manouevre and release when you are done

 

"In general, if you’re not in combat, use the AP and trim isn’t necessary, if you’re in combat there is a minimal amount of trimming needed"

Hmmm no, it is the opposite.

 

"Landing and occasionally when I have asymmetrical stores are the only time I find myself trimming"

ok but we were talking about pitch trim not rolling.

In french we say about that : "oh le lourd..."

:pilotfly:

[Azrayen]

"As for the video, The pilot would be trimmed for takeoff "

The pilot "would"... But in the facts, when do you see him doing this action in the video?

Uh uh :) We don't, BUT when eyes don't help, logic may:

If he wasn't trimmed for takeoff, what would have occured? Oh, yeah, the big red DECOL warning. Any warning (amber or red) = take off forbidden.

Would he have took off with the very same warning telling him precisely "don't; there is something wrong with your aircaft re: take off configuration"?

(I like Occam's razor, BTW)

 

Then in which part you are not agree with me when i said : "The moments when he use the trim control is when auto-pilot is activated which is not for trimming purpose."

I know you weren't asking me, but I may as well tell for the record that I don't (disagree with you). Not by principle anyway. And not here precisely, either.

 

"you can also always double tap the AP."

You can even do it with one tap by pressing "AP standby" during the manouevre and release when you are done

Absolutely. :)

 

"In general, if you’re not in combat, use the AP and trim isn’t necessary, if you’re in combat there is a minimal amount of trimming needed"

Hmmm no, it is the opposite.

Hmmm no, it is the opposite of half the opposite (no, I don't sell brain pain-killer drugs, why do you ask? :D)

AP is certainly not needed in (air) combat: at this time, the bloody thing is off!

OTOH, trim certainly is needed/useful then, because of the reasons Martini wrote (I would just not agree on "minimal amount" ;))

 

"Landing and occasionally when I have asymmetrical stores are the only time I find myself trimming"

ok but we were talking about pitch trim not rolling.

FWIW, the (tiny) brain of a 2000C FBW doesn't really care: either it trims (in both pitch and roll), either it doesn't (in neither pitch nor roll). In this sense, it's relevant.

Yaw is of course a bit jealous, but it's already managed by FBW (*) so... too bad for it!

 

(*) unless serious failure condition.

 

Regards; and cheers!

Az'

Edited February 6, 2018 by Azrayen
typo

[blast]

"Uh uh We don't, BUT when eyes don't help, logic may:

If he wasn't trimmed for takeoff, what would have occured? Oh, yeah, the big red DECOL warning. Any warning (amber or red) = take off forbidden.

Would he have took off with the very same warning telling him precisely "don't; there is something wrong with your aircaft re: take off configuration"?

(I like Occam's razor, BTW)"

 

The big red decoll warning is a feature that was already implemented in the previous version. You needed to trim or to press AP to correct the pitch just before take off in order to solve this. BUT once airborne, you didnt had to trim again or to activate the AP to maintain the pitch. Which is not the case with the new flight model.

 

For the rest of your post, even if I do not completely agree with you I prefer to stop here because its becoming "lourd" and pedro will kill all of us:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZ6-6RbSEg

[Azrayen]

The big red decoll warning is a feature that was already implemented in the previous version.

Yes indeed, it's been implemented for quite some time actually :)

 

BUT once airborne, you didnt had to trim again or to activate the AP to maintain the pitch. Which is not the case with the new flight model.

No you didn't indeed. Yes this changed, I'm aware ;)

But I understood you were answering to Martini about being "trimmed for takeoff"; so for this question, what happens once airborne is moot.

 

++

Az'

 

PS: I fear no Walter.

[Martini]

I think a lot of this is semantics at this point.

 

-Blast wants the marginally easier to fly early access fly-by-wire functionality that was either incorrect due to it being easier to program or because Razbam lacked the correct information on the system.

 

-Razbam either got more information and/or had time to implement the current fly-by-wire functionality, which would be 100000% illogical for them to do if the existing fly-by-wire system was accurate - why would they do more work to make the product worse in terms of realism/accuracy?

 

-The people knowledgeable on the topic and the rational interpretation of the mirage stick layout concur that this fly-by-wire/AP/trim system is more accurate than the first implementation

 

-Blast still want the old system because it's a tiny bit easier, despite the fact that this is Digital Combat SIMULATOR that aims to "offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft"

 

Am I missing anything here because it seems pretty pointless to continue this discussion unless someone finds some concrete evidence that the updated fly-by-wire system is unrealistic?

[Martini]

FWIW, the (tiny) brain of a 2000C FBW doesn't really care: either it trims (in both pitch and roll), either it doesn't (in neither pitch nor roll). In this sense, it's relevant.

Yaw is of course a bit jealous, but it's already managed by FBW (*) so... too bad for it!

 

I still find myself having to trim a bit more with asymmetrical stores once I turn AP off, maybe it's just because the plane is more sensitive to changes in speed/alt/aoa/pitch/roll etc, than with symmetrical stores where you can change the aforementioned parameters a reasonable amount before you need to manually trim or reengage the AP.

 

Just to clarify, the way I worded it earlier made it seem like I had to trim with asymmetrical stores even with the AP engaged, which is impossible to my knowledge in pitch/roll as the trim hat switches to control the AP.

[Martini]

OTOH, trim certainly is needed/useful then, because of the reasons Martini wrote (I would just not agree on "minimal amount" ;))

 

Could you explain this? I rarely am able to tell them I am out of trim if I am doing BFM or maneuvering hard. If for example I have the stick all the way back in my lap and am rolling left while increasing speed, I will not be able to tell if I am slightly out of trim at that given moment...only when I stop maneuvering hard will I notice that the plane needs to be re-trimmed. Obviously in certain BFM situations I could tell that I am out of trim (if I am level and pull straight back, only using pitch inputs, and the plane starts to roll as I go into the vertical, I can tell that I need to trim LWD or RWD), but most often too many things are changing and the amount of trim needed would change faster than it could be input with the hat.

[Azrayen]

@ Martini:

• about post #66:I'm not sure of what you mean exactly, but I will say this:
  - the aircraft doesn't automatically trim in roll (nor pitch) with AP Off,
  - the aircraft automatically trims in roll and pitch with AP On, in this case the pilot can't trim himself, as the trim hat now gives orders (route/heading and flight path) to the AP.
  So when you have an inbalance (due to weapons assymetrical or any other reason) you need to trim manually; or engage the AP, it will do it for you. AFAIK this is correctly implemented since a long time (I will say at least one year).
  
• about post #67: Yeah, I was talking about the real aircraft: it has an artificial feeling system, the stick may be "harder" due to this; in this case, "naturally", the pilot does trim to releave the pressure he has to counter to keep the stick where he wants it. :)
  We don't have artificial feeling system on our joysticks (except those using force feedback, and even there I'm not sure artificial feeling has been implemented in DCS M-2000C).

 

Regards,

Az'

[jojo]

AFAIK there is no force feedback on real Mirage either. There are only springs systems, the more you pull, the harder it is. (10kg full aft stick)

When the pilot uses trim, the stick doesn't stay in place. The trim values are added to stick input.

 

In fact it works very much like our desktop joystick, excepted that I think very few of us need to pull 10kg on the stick.

 

In balance and roll trim:

The trim setting is only valid for a specific set of conditions (attitude, engine's RPM).

When you change these conditions, you have to adjust the trim setting.

 

If your left wing is heavier, the slower you are the more you have to trim to right.

The faster you are, the more you have to decrease that trim.

 

When you're pulling G, the heavy wing will want to "drop", expect to counter it with stick roll input.

 

At the end of the day, despite fancy FBW it's still an airplane :smilewink:

[Deano87]

When the pilot uses trim, the stick doesn't stay in place. The trim values are added to stick input.

 

Do you mean the stick Does stay in place instead of doesn't?

[myHelljumper]

Do you mean the stick Does stay in place instead of doesn't?

 

I think he said the stick would't move when you trim the aircraft.

[jojo]

Do you mean the stick Does stay in place instead of doesn't?

 

No matter what the trim is, when you release the stick it goes back to neutral position.

Or you can trim the aircraft and the stick won't live at all indeed.

 

So force feedback joystick has no interest at all with M-2000C module.

[Azrayen]

AFAIK there is no force feedback on real Mirage either.

Nor did I say it does. I used force feedback words for simmers joysticks, because it's how they're called :)

 

There are only springs systems, the more you pull, the harder it is. (10kg full aft stick)

This is what I called "artificial feeling system"; sorry if it wasn't crystal clear.:unsure:

 

++

Az'

[CoBlue]

I've been away from M2000C for some time. Getting back, I can no longer do AAR refueling & formation flying. Due to the new FBW.

 

So what about FBW pitch? Can someone explain why the pitch is more responsive up then down? It should be uniform.

[jojo]

I've been away from M2000C for some time. Getting back, I can no longer do AAR refueling & formation flying. Due to the new FBW.

 

So what about FBW pitch? Can someone explain why the pitch is more responsive up then down? It should be uniform.

 

 

Go read here for AAR

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=202221

and read this thread from the beginning.

 

The rest has been discussed in other threads. Sorry, I don't have the heart to do it again :(

[CoBlue]

Go read here for AAR

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=202221

and read this thread from the beginning.

The rest has been discussed in other threads. Sorry, I don't have the heart to do it again :(

I've read this thread even before posting here, unfortunately it didn't help me much, as I've always used A-G mode. Thanx anyway;).

 

The FBW pitch logic in AAR, formation flying & precision flying defines all logic. It's unnatural to have an non-uniform response in up/down axis & gets you in bad habits with other airplanes.

 

So please, someone point me to where this is explained & discussed?

/thanx!

[escaner]

I've read this thread even before posting here, unfortunately it didn't help me much, as I've always used A-G mode. Thanx anyway;).

 

The FBW pitch logic in AAR, formation flying & precision flying defines all logic. It's unnatural to have an non-uniform response in up/down axis & gets you in bad habits with other airplanes.

 

So please, someone point me to where this is explained & discussed?

/thanx!

 

The problem is that the Mirage stick has less travel forward than backward, but our sticks have the same. Neutral stick is 1G, max deflection back is 9G and max deflection forward is -3G (figures from memory, limits could be wrong). So you have 1 - -3 = 4G travel forward and 9 - 1 = 8G travel backward => Pitch up has double the authority than pitch down.

 

To solve this we would need to modify the response curve of our stick so it saturates at about 50% travel forward while keeping the backward range the same.

[Sarge55]

Actually, someone did just that (user defined curve) to simulate the actual throw of the stick. Unfortunately I didn't note which thread it was in.

[lemoen]

The problem is that the Mirage stick has less travel forward than backward, but our sticks have the same. Neutral stick is 1G, max deflection back is 9G and max deflection forward is -3G (figures from memory, limits could be wrong). So you have 1 - -3 = 4G travel forward and 9 - 1 = 8G travel backward => Pitch up has double the authority than pitch down.

 

To solve this we would need to modify the response curve of our stick so it saturates at about 50% travel forward while keeping the backward range the same.

 

The Mirage (and Viggen and Spitfire) also has different stick lengths for pitch and for roll, long stick in the pitch direction, short in the roll.