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Model Visbility in 2.5?


TwojaStara
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Back in the day, when I too was a PPL, I had great difficulty spotting other private aircraft at more than two miles range, esp against clouds or terrain.

Remember Radar Advisory Service once informing of converging traffic from the right, 500ft below. Despite two pairs of eyes looking, we never saw him.

 

All one has to think is how a 747 or other widebody looks from the ground when flying at 36,000ft or 6 miles. How many would notice it if not for the contrail? What if was against a cloud and not blue sky?

 

I'm sceptical of claims of seeing the aircraft itself at 30 miles or more. The contrail maybe with a glint of sunlight at the front, but not the aircraft itself. Then again I don't have the eyes of an Eagle. Just normal issue in those days, and over twenty years later, needing panes of glass to get a decent view.

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I saw that quote as well, I believe it was something about being able to see German planes over Berlin from the Channel... nothing against the great Chuck Yeager, but I am not buying that one more than just Chuck Yeager speak ;)

 

Nick Grey of the TFC, who flies WWII birds on a regular basis said that on average, small WWII fighters are around 3nm. Obviously dependant on many things. This is most likely only spotting them as well, IDing them in combat conditions would be another thing.

 

ED talks to and has Pilots on staff, don't think that they are ignorant to what is needed or expected.

 

Hyperbole and Biases aside...

 

Even being able to see the enemy a mile sooner could make all the difference.

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Hyperbole and Biases aside...

 

Even being able to see the enemy a mile sooner could make all the difference.

 

Of course, and as I stated, ED isnt done with it, for example I reported we need better visibility of glint, smoke, contrails, lights, etc.

 

But we have to remember that spotting is also a skill, and practice and experience improve it as well.

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Of course, and as I stated, ED isnt done with it, for example I reported we need better visibility of glint, smoke, contrails, lights, etc.

 

But we have to remember that spotting is also a skill, and practice and experience improve it as well.

 

Granted...

 

But only if the technology can properly mimic the physiology.

 

No argument that SA is an acquired skill and you improve by knowing how to use the "building blocks" but if you can't see what should be plainly visible despite looking in the exact right place at the exact right time...

 

So bring on 2.5 and let's see what we see... :)

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Granted...

 

But only if the technology can properly mimic the physiology.

 

No argument that SA is an acquired skill and you improve by knowing how to use the "building blocks" but if you can't see what should be plainly visible despite looking in the exact right place at the exact right time...

 

So bring on 2.5 and let's see what we see... :)

 

Exactly, its not a simple fix, so we will see what comes. Its on my watch list, and I have a number of reports in with ED already on the subject.

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I play in VR and the model visibility is a lot less than using a monitor.

 

Regardless, even when using a monitor it's still a far cry from 20-30 miles away. Even when I used to fly, I could spot the smallest GA aircraft from miles away, let alone an aircraft that size of tanker.

 

That is a good thing, because I dont think most people can spot 20-30 miles away, least not the greater percentage.

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We had one with the Pixel enlargement aid, but it was removed and not replaced with a better option. And the "hardcore crowd" felt it was a cheat and often turned off. However, most of those had never flown in a real jet and dont know what visibility is in air.

 

Over Afghanistan, I was often able to pick out another orbiting tanker/AWACS sized aircraft at 30-40 miles. Fighters typically 15-20. Not all eyeballs are the same though.

 

Back to game.

So now we're forced to dumb down our graphics to overcome a huge oversight <--- no pun intended.

 

Great eyeballs you have sir!

 

I´m able to pick an airliner around 30 nm. and is just a dot in the sky.

 

But all of this depends on the light and atmosphere, sometimes we have the airliner dancing around 10 nm. and it´s a pain to make visual contact.

 

The problem with DCS was when we got the "model enlarge visibility" most of us (also it depends on hardware used) we were able to spot a dot in the sky before we could track it via the radar, so online the use of the radar was pointless.

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You probably need to stop by the eye doctor then ;)

 

Interesting read while we wait for 2.5 and see what ED can do once the graphical updates slow down.

 

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/9594/what-is-the-longest-distance-at-which-an-aircraft-can-be-visually-identified

 

And this

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3343542&postcount=2

 

And need to remember that for the US military the "BVR" starts from a 5nm distance, as that was the korean experiences that lead to tests and results that when you should spot something and so on launching missile past that was considered "BVR kill" in the hit.

It was just easier to them to define it with a single numberical value regardless target size etc other factors as then you could do the calculations and teaching easily. But it was backed up by their empirical research for most cases. And yet as well pointed out that if you knew exactly where to look, you could spot targets in good position far far further, but it is very unlikely you do that than in optimal situations.

 

And that is as well my experience in DCS, that in optimal situations, knowing where to look, I can spot targets far, far further than "1km" but only when using 4K, while Full HD makes it far more difficult and in VR it is like trying to spot something that "ain't there".

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SME pilots working with ED state that generally the limit is 5-6 nm in ideal conditions for a fighter-sized aircraft. Engine smoke, contrails or glint can extend that of course. Even at 5-6 nm, sensors or ATC/AWACS direction is needed to cue the pilot where to look.

 

That seems about right to me. But its not the absolute visibility thats the main issue. Its the relative visibility depending on the resolution thats my main gripe.

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...The problem with DCS was when we got the "model enlarge visibility" most of us (also it depends on hardware used) we were able to spot a dot in the sky before we could track it via the radar, so online the use of the radar was pointless.

 

Did VR users see it before it hit via radar, as well?

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Back in the day, when I too was a PPL, I had great difficulty spotting other private aircraft at more than two miles range, esp against clouds or terrain.

 

GA aircraft are very small though! It is true, they are hard to see, but fighters are 2-4 times bigger than a Cessna, depending on type, so they are easier to spot. I'm hoping for 2.5 to make things better.

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I think the biggest problem, and I'm only talking VR here as I don't do flat screens anymore, is how the aircraft appears and disappears from view.

 

You can be following him up into the vertical and he is there and easily visible against the sky one second, then just vanishes into thin air in the next, if you pardon the pun.

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I think spotting is pretty well done tbh. We def need the extra things like glint, smoke, trails, as mentioned but people have this idea that you should be able to readily see planes that are 22 miles away; that's bull. The only way that makes sense is if you know exactly where to look and still you probably won't be physically able to see it without some glimmer or something offering contrast (and I'm talking giant commercial jets).

 

I have a bit of a problem with the "single pixel" approach for long range visibility. It provides a huge advantage to those with 1080p monitors. At 4k you can barely see a single pixel. I don't think that approach is fair or realistic as the pixel shows up outside the range that would be feasible for normal human eyesight.

 

VR is a whole different discussion. I don't think there's any reason talking about it until the pixel density gets to an acceptable level. Right now its laughable (and I own the Rift).

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I think spotting is pretty well done tbh. We def need the extra things like glint, smoke, trails, as mentioned but people have this idea that you should be able to readily see planes that are 22 miles away; that's bull.

 

Do you think we should be able to see planes at dogfight range?

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I think spotting is pretty well done tbh. We def need the extra things like glint, smoke, trails, as mentioned but people have this idea that you should be able to readily see planes that are 22 miles away; that's bull. The only way that makes sense is if you know exactly where to look and still you probably won't be physically able to see it without some glimmer or something offering contrast (and I'm talking giant commercial jets).

 

I have a bit of a problem with the "single pixel" approach for long range visibility. It provides a huge advantage to those with 1080p monitors. At 4k you can barely see a single pixel. I don't think that approach is fair or realistic as the pixel shows up outside the range that would be feasible for normal human eyesight.

 

VR is a whole different discussion. I don't think there's any reason talking about it until the pixel density gets to an acceptable level. Right now its laughable (and I own the Rift).

 

That's why we should be talking about vr. There had be available system to help overcome the low pixel density of vr. The imposer system worked well for the brief time I was able to use it with vr before it was gone.

 

To ignore the issue completely locks out the vr user. There has to be some system to help compensate for the current tech in vr.

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I think the biggest problem, and I'm only talking VR here as I don't do flat screens anymore, is how the aircraft appears and disappears from view.

 

You can be following him up into the vertical and he is there and easily visible against the sky one second, then just vanishes into thin air in the next, if you pardon the pun.

 

I agree. Even on a flatscreen monitor. It seems like there is a zone between 500m - 1000m that aircraft just vanish from view, even when zoomed in to the max. I have to zoom out all the way and wait for them to become a pixel again to have a chance to see them.

 

I really liked the customizable model enlargement feature. It made dogfighting more comfortable and it was much easier to keep track of wingmen. It also allowed you to reasonably play in VR.

 

Currently I have A hard time finding my wingman at 500m even though I know almost exactly where he is in relation to me.

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I agree. Even on a flatscreen monitor. It seems like there is a zone between 500m - 1000m that aircraft just vanish from view, even when zoomed in to the max. I have to zoom out all the way and wait for them to become a pixel again to have a chance to see them.

 

I really liked the customizable model enlargement feature. It made dogfighting more comfortable and it was much easier to keep track of wingmen. It also allowed you to reasonably play in VR.

 

Currently I have A hard time finding my wingman at 500m even though I know almost exactly where he is in relation to me.

 

You kidding?I can see my wingman even at a distance of 4miles. If zoom in, can see 5+ miles, I use 2560X1440 resolution, old rig i5 2500k+gtx970.

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You kidding?I can see my wingman even at a distance of 4miles. If zoom in, can see 5+ miles, I use 2560X1440 resolution, old rig i5 2500k+gtx970.

 

Depends on the aircraft obviously a A-10C isn’t as bad, but the some of the smaller aircraft like the MiG or Mirage blend in with the background. I’ve tried resolutions between 1080p and 4K

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There's many real life pilot accounts in the Dogfights: Series that mentioned spotting bandits beyond 10km range yet in DCS small aircraft completely disappear beyond 1km on my monitor.

Sure I need an upgrade but the game should guarantee visibility up to 10 clicks I'd say, and that's putting it conservatively. some conditions they spotted aircraft beyond 10km

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There's many real life pilot accounts in the Dogfights: Series that mentioned spotting bandits beyond 10km range yet in DCS small aircraft completely disappear beyond 1km on my monitor.

Sure I need an upgrade but the game should guarantee visibility up to 10 clicks I'd say, and that's putting it conservatively. some conditions they spotted aircraft beyond 10km

 

There is no "guarantee" you could spot a target 10k away, conditions would have to be perfect, you would have to know where to look, some help from GCI if we are talking WWII, many WWII accounts state that although you might pick up a target, identifying it usually required being right up on a target in some cases. Remember, ED has pilot SMEs, they are giving ED info on spotting and what is possible, as such, ED is also working on improving things as well.

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There is no "guarantee" you could spot a target 10k away, conditions would have to be perfect, you would have to know where to look, some help from GCI if we are talking WWII, many WWII accounts state that although you might pick up a target, identifying it usually required being right up on a target in some cases. Remember, ED has pilot SMEs, they are giving ED info on spotting and what is possible, as such, ED is also working on improving things as well.

 

To be honest, I'm not too worried about what the exact distance IRL is and what exact distance ED will decide to implement. I'm more worried about the current 'black dots' that let me see planes and missiles 30+ km away against the sky, while at the same time I can't see my wingman close to me, or a dogfighting opponent. Could you tell us if they're going to get rid of this 'black dot' stuff? I mean, as I see it, this 1 pixel dot is a good idea as long as the dot is about the same color as the plane, not a black dot against the sky, right?

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To be honest, I'm not too worried about what the exact distance IRL is and what exact distance ED will decide to implement. I'm more worried about the current 'black dots' that let me see planes and missiles 30+ km away against the sky, while at the same time I can't see my wingman close to me, or a dogfighting opponent. Could you tell us if they're going to get rid of this 'black dot' stuff? I mean, as I see it, this 1 pixel dot is a good idea as long as the dot is about the same color as the plane, not a black dot against the sky, right?

 

Oh man I'd love to have black dots back, then maybe I could see something! in 2.3 I can't see anything most of the time lol!

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