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Overly sensitive control inputs


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Hi,

 

Haven't been on the forum for a while and haven't been in DCS for a while either.

 

So yesterday I got back into DCS. Decided to use the F-5 as it is a relatively simple aircraft, and though it isn't a new issue for me, it's the first time I decided to post about it. I've looked around the forum for an answer, but I haven't found anything exactly talking about this. So:

 

I have the issue that, and the issue is at its worst on the F-5, that my controls inputs are overly sensitive. I'm not talking about the axis controls, but about the hat switches mainly. I use a Thrustmaster T16000 (HOTAS and Rudder pedals) and when I want to trim the aircraft, or move the radar cursor, or similar kind of operations, I'm having a hard time. Even if I just try to push one of my hat switch just a tiny bit, I get big movements.

 

So for example, when I try to lock onto a radar signal, I just can't get my cursor onto it easily. I just keep going over and not being able to stop the cursor onto it.

 

Or, for example, if my plane is almost rightly trimmed but just require a tiny bit more, I just end up overshooting it, and the plane is now more "untrimmed" than it was.

 

I own other modules, for instance the Mirage and the A10, and the issue is much less present. Which makes me think it's not the joystick but the F-5 module itself. I have also tried another joystick and I had the same issue (though I must say it was another cheaper Thrustmaster joystick).

 

Any way I can adjust that input sensitivity? Some work around maybe? Anybody else having this issue?

 

Thanks a lot.

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He is not talking about the axis but for the trim.

Overall in DCS and in all its modules it is a thing, more sensitive than what you would expect. Not much that you can do really.

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He is not talking about the axis but for the trim.

Overall in DCS and in all its modules it is a thing, more sensitive than what you would expect. Not much that you can do really.

 

 

False. You can adjust the curves and the deadzone to the controls. I haven't really messed with it much but depending on your preferred feel, you can adjust it so that you can cause some travel in the stick without it actually moving the controls. This will give a more "spungy" feel and increase controllability to a point but you lose sensitivity (i.e. immediacy of action by the aircraft to one's commands). My recommendation is to adjust the deadzone a bit, then flex the curve to make a smooth shape. Unless someone has presets that they find work well for the F-5 that they are willing to share.

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He is not talking about axis commands like the stick movement, he is talking about sensitivity of his radar slew and trim hat switches.

The F5 is well known to be a trim hound. I don't use it much, but when I do, that trim switch is in constant motion in response to every little alteration of the flight parameters.

 

First thing I would check is that the controls are not bound in duplicate with other controllers.

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Never heard or read the term 'trim hound'. As IRL you do need to constantly trim but that's nothing special.

 

Can't imagine to fly for more than a few seconds in an out-of-trim condition, neither IRL nor in any sim.

 

Possible yeah I understand. But the thing is small inputs of trim give bigger reaction expected, not so in the F-5 but try the Mig 21 and you will notice.

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Hi,

 

Haven't been on the forum for a while and haven't been in DCS for a while either.

 

So yesterday I got back into DCS. Decided to use the F-5 as it is a relatively simple aircraft, and though it isn't a new issue for me, it's the first time I decided to post about it. I've looked around the forum for an answer, but I haven't found anything exactly talking about this. So:

 

I have the issue that, and the issue is at its worst on the F-5, that my controls inputs are overly sensitive. I'm not talking about the axis controls, but about the hat switches mainly. I use a Thrustmaster T16000 (HOTAS and Rudder pedals) and when I want to trim the aircraft, or move the radar cursor, or similar kind of operations, I'm having a hard time. Even if I just try to push one of my hat switch just a tiny bit, I get big movements.

 

So for example, when I try to lock onto a radar signal, I just can't get my cursor onto it easily. I just keep going over and not being able to stop the cursor onto it.

 

Or, for example, if my plane is almost rightly trimmed but just require a tiny bit more, I just end up overshooting it, and the plane is now more "untrimmed" than it was.

 

I own other modules, for instance the Mirage and the A10, and the issue is much less present. Which makes me think it's not the joystick but the F-5 module itself. I have also tried another joystick and I had the same issue (though I must say it was another cheaper Thrustmaster joystick).

 

Any way I can adjust that input sensitivity? Some work around maybe? Anybody else having this issue?

 

Thanks a lot.

 

 

Your cursor is controlled by an axis. Set 30-100-30-0 top down to get A-10C TGP slew rate in the axis. For trimming, I dont see the issue. Perhaps can you post a voiced video explaining the problem and how your hardware looks like? how you press it?

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For trimming, are you holding the stick where you want to maintain level flight and THEN trimming off the pressures. Or are you trimming in hopes of finding level? If it's the former, then don't hold the trim for so long (I'm talking about a half second at most) and do it "one click at a time" until you get what you want. If you are trimming to just stop the aircraft from moving, then try the other method since it is the most useful means of trimming an aircraft (specific a military one).

 

Cheers,

 

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Still, the OP's problem is related to the trim response time vs hat switch press time ratio, which is hardcoded in the module and we don't know if it's correct for this particular type of an airplane.

 

Triming techniques aside, bad coding of this feature can affect the playability of the module, the most blatant example being Spit Mk IX, where elevator trim operation when assigned to keys/button is exactly 10 times slower than rudder one, making one way too slow, while the other way too twitchy.

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+1

Removing the pressure needed to keep the stick/yoke in a off-center position by trimming is the way to use the trim in every plane, not only in the military.

 

 

Sorry, my point about military trim was that it is instant from the point of moving the trim switch. Civilian aircraft tend to have a delay for electronic trim (hat switches). The method of trimming does not change.

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All of my RL civilian flying with electric trim, it's been instant. Not sure why there would ever be a delayed response unless there was a problem with the mechanism. Now, response to trim is a different story. But that has more to do with the stability (or instability) characteristics of the aircraft in question and if FBW FCS is part of the equation.

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Interesting. Never noticed a difference IRL. Which civil planes do have a delay and for what reason?

 

I'm not sure if it's standard but I've flown the king air 350 and 350er. Both had a delay on the electronic but no delay if you use the wheel. I'm not sure why, I just accepted it as it was and used the wheel (couldn't stand the delay).

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Sorry I couldn't comment on my own post earlier than that, but what was mentioned is quite interesting.

 

First of all, my post is really just related to sensitivity of the hat switches movement. Trim switch, radar slew, etc.

 

I wasn't talking about axis controls, since I am well aware you can adjust it with curves and such.

 

As for adjusting slew sensitivity, I am just aware that it is possible with the A10. And it isn't in the DCS settings or anything, it's something you can do within the A10 cockpit and though I don't quite remember how, I remember doing it at some point. So yes, the hat switch sensitivity is not a problem with the A10.

 

I would think that the F5 is difficult to trim possibly because of how sensitive the hat switches are in DCS.

 

Even in the Mirage, I have a hard time locking onto a target on the radar because I can't slew onto it easily.

 

But, it seems I am not alone with the issue, so the good thing is that it confirms what I thought, it's not related to my joystick.

 

Finally, to answer one's question about trimming : Yes, I first try to have a stable flight and only then do I trim to relieve pressure from the controls. As most pointed out, I still have to constantly adjust pitch, roll and thrust, but at least I don't need to apply constant pressure on the stick. I guess this is normal and how one should fly the F-5 right?

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  • 1 year later...
Adjust your axis curves. I have a group of 6 guys and were able to.fly tight formation in the F5. Once you adjust your curves itel ease out that touchy movement.

 

Could we get their curves, please?

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Better to map the TDC slew to your joystick. It needs a big dead zone, I'm at 6 now and that's not even quite enough. Flatten it out, I use a curvature of 25. Until you get used to it, you might want to reduce Y saturation, which limits the maximum speed of the cursor.

 

As for trim, remember maintain straight and level flight with the stick, not the trim. Trying to fly the thing with the trim button never works out.

 

You adjust trim by feel, not by visual indicators. If you're having to pull back on the stick to maintain level flight, pulse the trim button once or twice and see how that affected the back pressure on the stick. Repeat as necessary.

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Better to map the TDC slew to your joystick. It needs a big dead zone, I'm at 6 now and that's not even quite enough. Flatten it out, I use a curvature of 25. Until you get used to it, you might want to reduce Y saturation, which limits the maximum speed of the cursor.

 

As for trim, remember maintain straight and level flight with the stick, not the trim. Trying to fly the thing with the trim button never works out.

 

You adjust trim by feel, not by visual indicators. If you're having to pull back on the stick to maintain level flight, pulse the trim button once or twice and see how that affected the back pressure on the stick. Repeat as necessary.

 

Thanks, I’ll try that. But I would still like to see the curves 000rick000 mentioned. They sound great.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

I was actually impressed with what seems like the accuracy of the flight model in this area. The F-5 should be hard to trim in cruise if it's like the T-38. It's hard to trim because the airplane has minimum stick force per G at .9 Mach, and the slightest movement of the stick gives you more climb or descent than you want when trying to make smooth adjustments to level flight. Smallest movement of the trim button can give you more movement than needed to trim off the very slight amount of stick force that you can hardly even feel. It's a sweet plane to maneuver but takes constant attention in high altitude cruise. Long flights make you dream of a simple altitude and bank hold autopilot.

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I'm using a thrustmaster t.1600. I have the hat switch set to trim the pitch and yaw. 1 click either way on the hat switch totally over corrects the trim. A2A's trim seems to work fabulously in P3D - we need some better trim response in DCS.

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I have been observing similar behavior on trim as Sylosis, and am kinda glad I am not the only one noticing it.

 

The funny thing is, that a few years back I looked into the trim rate of the real T38 (knowing it is a similar airframe as the F5) and found the trim rate in DCS' F5 to be very close to the real thing. Still, I would suggest slowing it down or adding an acceleration ramp to the trim rate, to make it more useable in the sim. After all, most of us are flying without any tactile feedback and it could help precision tremendously.

 

I even used an Arduino to generate the smallest possible trim increment (1 frame) and I noticed, that in an F5 at typical cruise airspeeds, this "quantum" of an input was already enough to change vertical G by about 0.01G. That is quite a big change. For example: Typical autopilot inputs in airliners use changes in vertical acceleration of around 0.15G at max for flight level changes.

 

Cheers,... Dirty :-)

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There is another thought that crossed my mind:

Does anyone know how the value of trim is represented internally in DCS code? I mean, if it is stored as a single byte value (only 256 states), it would explain why it behaves so granularly.

 

Again: I found the numbers to be very plausible, I just think it should be adapted for easier use given the restrictions of simulator flight.

 

Dirty :-)

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Are you folks certain it’s a trim sensitivity issue per se? I’m guessing that most people don’t fly at a constant airspeed. It’s always moving up and down and, as a result, trim is always moving off the mark. If your speed increases, you gain altitude. As you lose speed, you lose altitude.

 

I took a quick flight earlier today and had no difficulty, once my airspeed settled in.

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