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how to change the size of the cockpit?


misoswan
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hi

not everyone have to same view eye (for one person it is cockpit big for the other small)

I would be happy if this option was also in DCS.

Many games have this option.

100% I'm not the only ones who would like this option in dcs.

Thanks michal

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World Scale is what you are looking for. Not supported in DCS, and afaik, no way of editing a file to archive it.

 

But I do agree, it could need a few percent. Its especially clear when next to vehicles, they are just too tiny looking, and I doubt they are off scale. Same goes for some cockpits. And it only takes a few percent, to make a huge impact on how large we perceive the world / objects. 110% would be too much. I think 103-104%.

 

Accurate or not, I still think we should have a world scale, for those that perceive it too big or small. Just like we have a FOV adjust for monitors.

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I'm not disagreeing with anyone, but vehicles always look like toys from airplanes :)

 

everything else feels large enough, especially when you are trying to avoid it in a helicopter :)

 

but yeah, a world slider for those with problems.

 

one thing to try is adjust the HMD so your eye line is looking up at it instead of down at it. its a slight adjustment.

 

i noticed in the cinema i like to look up at the screen and not down at it. and i get a similar thing in the Rift.

it will trick the brain into thinking stuff is bigger. maybe its just me.

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Hehe, well its obviously when standing next to them, that they look small :)

Cockpits too for that matter, I perceive them a tad too small, especially the switches. Im afraid to brake those fragile little things.

 

But Im quite sure its a individual perceptions. We all perceive it different, even with the same headset and software. Hence why we see so many debates about it, in all kind of games. Just many factors playing in.

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Giving it a little further thought. I think its a depth thing. In my case, I perceive more depth, and therefor things might appear smaller. The other way around, one that perceive's it at 'correct' (correct being relative) scale, will not perceive as much depth as I do. What the cause would be, I dont know.

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

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Nah its set correct alright. Im in the low end of the scale, with 61mm. And changing it makes no bit of difference in DCS, other than the images just becomes more unclear.

 

My question is more, does DCS actually take this into account, cause if it doesnt - which it feels like it doesnt, it gives these different perceptions of the scale in the game. Say DCS uses a default of 66mm IPD, but doesnt adjust to what is calibrated for the headset. The lower the headset IPD compared to games IPD, the smaller objects are perceived. And the larger the headset IPD compared to game IPD, the bigger objects are perceived.

 

So the games eye separation / camera separation, needs to be adjustable. Or simply read the IPD set for the headset.

 

Edit: Forgot to include a link. Was reading up on it earlier today: http://kholdstare.github.io/technical/2013/10/06/sense-of-scale-vr.html


Edited by Knock-Knock

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Sure you don't want to give more work to the devs"jabbers":) but one day you will be forced to admit that change the world scale is usefull:)

Please look at just a little thing that you will find in all aircrafts of DCS world with a 3D pilot.

Look at the hands looking like as child hands or women,and surely not as man adult .

Nothing to do with IPD or any stuff about VR.

The scale chosen to your cockpits is too small;that's all.

From a real pilot in retirement.

Say it friendly

Have nice and merry Christmas and happy new year,see you next:)


Edited by cromhunt
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Sure you don't want to give more work to the devs"jabbers":) but one day you will be forced to admit that change the world scale is usefull:)

Please look at just a little thing that you will find in all aircrafts of DCS world with a 3D pilot.

Look at the hands looking such as wife's hands or child,and surely not as adult man.

Nothing to do with IPD or any stuff about VR.

The scale chosen to your cockpits is too small;that's all.

From a real pilot in retirement.

Say it friendly

Have nice and merry Christmas and happy new year,see you next:)

 

You act like i don't play this game. I own every module, play them all from time to time and on a regular basis, there is not a single cockpit that I feel is to small, they all seem right to me. I'm not saying there isn't an issue, I'm saying I don't see this problem and have never experienced it. I work in this field, I've made VR/AR applications at work, I understand scale, and I understand IPD, the reason I said it sounds like IPD is because it does, If your IPD is to low, things look small, and to large, to big. I've spent a lot of time adjusting my IPD, and I've even had my IPD tested to get the exact number and it makes a world of difference. Maybe this isn't the issue for you, but it very well could have been. I don't care if the devs get more work, it doesn't affect me, please don't demean my comments, I'm legitimately trying to understand your problem, as you must understand my point of view of not having your problem. I've never seen a single VR game with a "scale" adjustment like you are asking for, maybe you can provide some references?

 

Happy holidays.

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Nah its set correct alright. Im in the low end of the scale, with 61mm. And changing it makes no bit of difference in DCS, other than the images just becomes more unclear.

 

My question is more, does DCS actually take this into account, cause if it doesnt - which it feels like it doesnt, it gives these different perceptions of the scale in the game. Say DCS uses a default of 66mm IPD, but doesnt adjust to what is calibrated for the headset. The lower the headset IPD compared to games IPD, the smaller objects are perceived. And the larger the headset IPD compared to game IPD, the bigger objects are perceived.

 

So the games eye separation / camera separation, needs to be adjustable. Or simply read the IPD set for the headset.

 

Edit: Forgot to include a link. Was reading up on it earlier today: http://kholdstare.github.io/technical/2013/10/06/sense-of-scale-vr.html

 

I dont have an answer there, but maybe I can get it for you.

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Flyinside for FSX ,Project cars2...check it out buddy.

I don't want that discuss becomes a polemic.

You seem to be a tester for DCS world but doesn't mean that you are aware of all of VR games.

For my own playing with VR on several games since 4 years ago i know such as effect done with IPD..

Nothing at all according to your explanation.

I do regret for you :)

IPD is intended to improve the accuracy and prevent a blured screen,not the world scale.

It work's like a feature to avoid the squint effect.

Give it a try to your screen while squinting,you will never see the world scale changing:)

Say it friendly

 

PS:IPD = inter pupillary distance


Edited by cromhunt
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Flyinside for FSX

Wont try this, its not native

Project cars2...check it out buddy.
I'll have a look (not a big car racing fan.)

You seem to be a tester for DCS world but doesn't mean that you are aware of all of VR games.

Yes I am a tester, and that is why I'm engaging here, I never said I was aware of all VR games, I actually have only played maybe a dozen, because I enjoy DCS so much I will write up anything that seems valid, but I also can't just write things up that I don't experience myself. This is why I asked for references to other games that do this.

For my own playing with VR on several games for 4 years ago and i know such as effect done with IPD.

Nothing at all according to your explanation.

I do regret for you :)

IPD is intended to improve the accuracy and prevent a blured screen,not the world scale.

It work's like a feature to avoid the squint effect.

Give it a try to your screen if squinting,you will never see the world scale changing:)

Say it friendly

PS:IPD = inter pupillary distance

 

I know what it is, I'm going to equate what i persive as you being a jerk as a language barrier. IPD affects more than just what you speak of, it affects chromatic aberation, visual fidelity and proper magnification of the scene. Please do not speak down to me. Your experience does not equate to me education on the matter. I know what it is, I know what the acronym stands for.

 

There are many many many more factors at play here than just a simple IPD adjustment. I chose this as a start because this is the problem for a very large majority of people. Other things that can affect world scale are glasses, vision/eye issues such as myopia, astigmatism, etc.

 

If you want help, be respectful, if you don't continue to talk down to others, find out where that gets you.

 

I will write up a feature request regarding this after reviewing Project Cars, I cannot guarantee it will go anywhere, or when, if at all it will be addressed.

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Thx, Jabbers.

 

Just generally: Wolrd Scale, its not what it might sound like. They dont scale the world, I think they are simply changing the IPD, but calling it something more 'tangible'. I cant imagine the consequence actually scaling the world would have. So much to take into account and fudge, and yea, just wouldnt be practical.

 

And Im pretty confident that everything is modeled to scale in DCS, or very very very close.

But Im also very confident that I perceive the DCS World smaller trough VR.

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

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Thx, Jabbers.

 

Just generally: Wolrd Scale, its not what it might sound like. They dont scale the world, I think they are simply changing the IPD, but calling it something more 'tangible'. I cant imagine the consequence actually scaling the world would have. So much to take into account and fudge, and yea, just wouldnt be practical.

 

And Im pretty confident that everything is modeled to scale in DCS, or very very very close.

But Im also very confident that I perceive the DCS World smaller trough VR.

 

Hi, that's exactly this.

There is a confusion of terms I think, I see this kind of questioning coming back every now and then because there are actually two settings related to the distance between eyes, not just one.

 

The IPD is more the optics side, having proper IPD on the headset means your eyes are well aligned with the lenses and the screen, which is better for comfort, but this will not drastically affect the sense of scale because the images on the screens will be not be modified by this.

 

World scale, on the other hand, is on the rendering side, it is the distance between the two rendering viewports.

If the distance between the two viewports is too large, the world will appear very tiny (think of looking at a toy plane), and vice-versa.

 

The size of the world itself has nothing to do with it, it's the relation ship between the world "size" and the distance between the two rendering viewports that matters.

This setting should be unique to each person, currently I understand it is fixed in DCS, that's why some people complain about the world scale and some other not.

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Hi, that's exactly this.

There is a confusion of terms I think, I see this kind of questioning coming back every now and then because there are actually two settings related to the distance between eyes, not just one.

 

The IPD is more the optics side, having proper IPD on the headset means your eyes are well aligned with the lenses and the screen, which is better for comfort, but this will not drastically affect the sense of scale because the images on the screens will be not be modified by this.

 

World scale, on the other hand, is on the rendering side, it is the distance between the two rendering viewports.

If the distance between the two viewports is too large, the world will appear very tiny (think of looking at a toy plane), and vice-versa.

 

The size of the world itself has nothing to do with it, it's the relation ship between the world "size" and the distance between the two rendering viewports that matters.

This setting should be unique to each person, currently I understand it is fixed in DCS, that's why some people complain about the world scale and some other not.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=198338

 

Yes, World scale is deceiving, it is still and IPD issue which is what i was stating to the OP from the begining, but he chose to not believe me ;)

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Sounds like your IPD isnt set right.

 

IPD doesn't change the perspective of scale but depth. And with a one eye, person sees the sizes correctly but doesn't perceive the depth so well (but can do that even with a experience, like for driving a car or doing sports like ice hockey, soccer etc where measuring distances is required). As well most people does the distance measuring by not having two eyes, but actually brains are following how much cross-link does the eye muscles do, so if the eyes are looking in cross a lot, then object is close. If the both eyes are a lot forward, then person is looking far. And Virtual reality can't do this as display panels can't be adjusted closer or further (or moved closer or further apart) so the eyes muscles would be changed. This is reason why the military with the billions of budget has not managed to make a VR HMD for their pilots simulation use as it is better to have a huge screen outside of real cockpit to get the depth sensing. The same challenge was as well with the new modern helmets, as the projected information in eye needs to be very specific one, and all the software data that gets projected needs to be done so that eyes muscles are required to be used. That was as well one challenge for Google Glasses as even when for single eye, the "distance" felt wrong for many as their eyes muscles didn't accept the visual range depth.

 

Ie. If one places finger 10cm from their left eye center, then right eye is looking about 45 degree angle to that finger, even when the left eye is looking straight forward. That is a information to brains that how close and what size of the finger is.

 

The HMD height (wrong calibration height inputted) doesn't either change than other than the height of the floor, or in this case the seat.

The VR requires that every player could go and re-scale the world to their liking.

 

Ie, for me the A-10C cockpit is huge, like I have a 40cm space to both of my sides, like about 10-15cm too much.

In a harrier the chair is about 20cm below my chair, nothing can be done as the VR reset is for the HUD.

 

I can change as well IPD as much as I want but it doesn't change the world scale, as no matter how different people work in the different spaces, everyone experiences the distances similarly, like when there is a low doorway, everyone usually lower themselves same amount as required without some doing super low or some hitting their heads there.

 

It should have something to do with the FOV we have now (about 75-85 degree horizontal) as that generates the experience for the space too, so it ain't about IPD but "binoculars" effect that you are having too long focal length.

 

So in other words, the VR cameras position "inside" the VR HMD. The virtual cameras distance from the virtual head should be possible get adjusted. As well the VR zoom feature that is like super odd.


Edited by Fri13

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=198338

 

Yes, World scale is deceiving, it is still and IPD issue which is what i was stating to the OP from the begining, but he chose to not believe me ;)

 

That is the world scaling. The HMD IPD in VR means exactly just the HMD physical lens/display separation adjustment so the focusing of the screens is centered to both eyes.

 

You can't readjust the virtual cameras position via HMD IPD adjustment but only via World Scale adjustment.

 

And even that doesn't solve the problem as then you need to get the virtual cameras to correct depth inside the HMD, as currently in the DCS the cameras are too much further, so a natural head turn feels wrong. That is in other words a wrong nodal point per virtual lens.

 

Many VR game doesn't support this either and can cause a serious problem as it can either be a "perfect" (no perspective change in normal rotation) or then "too much" (too much perspective change in normal rotation) and reason for that is simply that everyone has different depth of the eyes to the sockets.

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Gotta love it when a 'tester' tells someone that their problem does not exist because he does not see it and, for that reason alone, will not be reported.

 

The physics of binocular vision, in a VR headset, has nothing to do with IPD but is directly tied to the spacing of the two virtual cameras used to generate a 3d perception. The fact that some devs choose to ignore this reality does not make it correct.

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Gotta love it when a 'tester' tells someone that their problem does not exist because he does not see it and, for that reason alone, will not be reported.

 

The physics of binocular vision, in a VR headset, has nothing to do with IPD but is directly tied to the spacing of the two virtual cameras used to generate a 3d perception. The fact that some devs choose to ignore this reality does not make it correct.

 

But the link he posted shows an "IPD" setting in DCS, that would be the camera spacing! - or world scale, or viewport separation, or rendering IPD, whatever. The IPD term is used for too many things :D

It's not available yet, it's for 2.5.

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But the link he posted shows an "IPD" setting in DCS, that would be the camera spacing! - or world scale, or viewport separation, or rendering IPD, whatever. The IPD term is used for too many things :D

It's not available yet, it's for 2.5.

 

Unfortunately, that is just showing a picture of a setting with no explanation of what it actually does. It may be what you assume, or it may not. It also may be implemented correctly or it may not. Time will tell.

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Hi, that's exactly this.

There is a confusion of terms I think, I see this kind of questioning coming back every now and then because there are actually two settings related to the distance between eyes, not just one.

 

The IPD is more the optics side, having proper IPD on the headset means your eyes are well aligned with the lenses and the screen, which is better for comfort, but this will not drastically affect the sense of scale because the images on the screens will be not be modified by this.

 

World scale, on the other hand, is on the rendering side, it is the distance between the two rendering viewports.

If the distance between the two viewports is too large, the world will appear very tiny (think of looking at a toy plane), and vice-versa.

 

The size of the world itself has nothing to do with it, it's the relation ship between the world "size" and the distance between the two rendering viewports that matters.

This setting should be unique to each person, currently I understand it is fixed in DCS, that's why some people complain about the world scale and some other not.

 

There is the third as well, that is really the world scale.

 

1) IPD (HMD optics separation to wearer eyes)

2) Virtual Cameras separation (it says it all)

3) Virtual Cameras Focal Length (zooming, FOV)

4) Virtual Cameras Nodal Point

5) The virtual world scale.

 

 

If person closes the other eye in VR, the world doesn't just magically turn to be "real size" or "wrong size", if the 3D modeling is something else.

 

It really requires that the software allows to change the virtual cameras separation, this information can be received with ie. Oculus as the wearer adjusts the IPD value to optics by looking a green crosshair to get a horizontal sharpness correctly and adjust HMD position on face/head by moving it up/down and tilting up/down. So this IPD value is then delivered to the software that should use that input as the virtual camera separation.

 

But then comes the FOV challenge. Some people has a wider FOW than others, they are simply custom to that. Some who wear eye glasses and has a near sightness, they need to use minus diopter setting so their eye glasses are making everything look smaller.

 

Then there is the HMD display sizes, that is filling specific area of the wearer eye, and then gets added the virtual FOV and all these starts to create a complex vision system to be used.

 

And the challenge is really that the HMD panels are so close to eye, that even eye glasses wearer the change is not same as it would be in real world. And people without glasses suffer from same problem, as the tiny displays inside HMD are projecting a image to eye via special shaped lenses for given size and distance, that the brains are not custom to.

 

Oculus has fairly well managed to get the basics right. Like their own virtual hand and virtual touch controller, but some people experience those at wrong size! They can even look under the nose hole the real controller and then look the virtual one and experience the size wrong (even with just one eye)!

 

And only way to fix that is to have a scaling option.

 

The human mind is very interesting in many ways as how we perceive distances, but as well sizes and angles. Like in VR when we have a physical gun grip (like touch controller grip) in hand, and it doesn't match the object in virtual world we are operating, the information we see and what we feel is in conflict and it causes a trouble to the wearer that he is hallucinating.

 

The life long experience and learned skill for eye-hand-coordination is lost, It doesn't work anymore and it starts to build a bad habits and other troubles, but mainly first signs are that ie. weapon aiming is wrong or it feels wrong or bad when the virtual weapon grip and the touch controller physical grip in our real hand doesn't match.

 

Just like the motion sickness, a eyes can see how the world moves around, but our inner ear tells that head ain't moving, and muscles ain't/is used to stabilize the motion. So brain gets many different kind information that are in conflict. And this is skill that everyone has learned to master since birth when learning to look around and roll over as baby. And then suddenly after all years, all senses from muscle commands to visual feedback to internal inertial sensor are wrong... YOU ARE POISONED, THROW UP! -master alarm might get triggered...

 

Some might get the same effect as when person snaps wake up from the dream where the felt they were falling and suddenly they notice that they didn't drop through the bed but are actually on very stable bed. And it takes a moment for body to realize that in what attitude it is and what is going on anyways, as the dream took over.

 

And these are some of the very dangerous things for young, developing mind (<27-32 years old) as they can learn wrong habits. And even for adult it can be risky in long periods or often, as they are learning the "new laws of physics". Some has already started talk how they have trouble in their balances and realizing the reality is reality and not "virtual", as they might feel more natural in virtual world than in real world.

 

It is like living a months in weightless space, and then return to earth and need to get custom back to earth gravity. How you can't just leave a mug in air but it will drop to floor, how you can't do the quick rotation around, how you can't reach "long distances" etc.

You even need to re-learn to walk again and roll on ground.


Edited by Fri13

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