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SEAD range


Joni
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Hi,

 

I was watching some videos about the F16 in BMS and the SEAD tasks are quite complex, but in the Su25T it seems that is easy.

 

How real is the ARMs simulation in DCS? Is it that simple as to lock the radiation source and fire? How does the system determines the allowed range?

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I've just been learning to do this with SU-25T. Very easy.

 

1.As soon as you see something pop up on RWR activate ETS Pod.

2. Turn towards target and slew TDC over threat marker and lock.

3. When in range LA appears. Launch.

 

I know, I actually said it was easy.

 

I was asking if its that easy in the real world.

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Based on reading Brick Eisel and Dan Hampton books, I can say its not easy. Radars usually work on different wavelengths, one is broad spectrum and the other is more refined and focused analysis spectrum. There is also the missile guidance spectrum that complicates the problem.

 

First, the radar must be in transmitting mode (active search), not passive mode. Second, the radar is usually coupled with an air defence network that consists of a search radar, a tracking radar, and missile guidance radar. A stout radar operator also could dummy launch the missile and at the final expected intercept point, turn on radar guidance to leave very little time if any for the aircraft to react.

 

 

SAM systems also could be fired into lofting trajectory and at the apex can home in on bandits expected trajectory.

 

There is also the question of AAA barrages when forced to go under SAM radar envelopes that compounds the problem.

 

 

Aircrafts used RHAWS to home in on emitting SAM radars. If the signal was strong they could reasonably locate the site. In later tech advances, SAM hunters used equipment that could analyse and thus classify type of SAM, position, proximity based on strobe levels and stage of tracking (broad spectrum search, narrow spectrum track, extremely short spectrum guidance) signals the battery was emitting.

 

In DCS, SAM representation leaves much more to be desired imho. I am not sure if scripts exist to simulate an intelligent radar operator, but in the main, its a point and shoot thing with DCS. If such scripts exist, its better to work with another ship as generally one is hunter and the other is killer.

 

Someday we might have a full working SAM simulation inside the realms of DCS, but for now, its lock and shoot and scoot.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Ok so it is well implemented in BMS.

 

Obviously not in dcs.

 

Absolutely. BMS which is ages older than DCS. The SA-2 is getting a unit in DCS though. It would be interesting to see how it does against F-15Cs for example. I hope it makes it to combined arms in full fidelity or as a separate module, which I personally would jump on in a tick.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Funny how badly implemented this (and a bunch of other stuff too) is in dcs.

 

Look at how it works on BMS.

 

It literally simulates how a complete defense network works. Look at how the signal appears and dissapears from RWR.

 

It is way too far from what we "have" now here in dcs. :(

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What I miss in DCS and also in BMS and what is quite an important factor during SEAD are false emitters. In BMS you see one SA-2, but as I've read (Hampton, Rosenkrantz, etc.), in reality your HAD or RWR would be cluttered with many false emitters so that it is often hard to discern, which one is the real one, though newer systems might be better in suppressing them. Moreover I know that Russian SAM systems are all able to simulate launches. All this deception techniques are also missing in BMS.

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There are IADS scripts available in the forum that are working great simulating ON-OFF SAMS and more feature like ECM coverage.

 

Search for them. A friend of mine is the Author of some.

" You must think in russian.."

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Funny how badly implemented this (and a bunch of other stuff too) is in dcs.

 

Look at how it works on BMS.

 

It literally simulates how a complete defense network works. Look at how the signal appears and dissapears from RWR.

 

It is way too far from what we "have" now here in dcs. :(

While that video is just about the RWR, the following video is about SEAD operations, which is be done on the F-16 with the HTS-pod that can detect and analyse SAM threats in much greater depth than the RWR and provide this informations to the HARM missiles to allow the usage of advanced targeting modes:

 

All these things are missing in DCS, partly due to its poor SAM simulation, but also because there are no real playable SEAD plattforms in the game yet. That will not change with the arrival of the F/A-18, as only the 18G is a real SEAD plattform, which I think has a build in emitter location system to do these kind of things. The 18C which we are getting has no means to analyse radar threats apart from the standard RWR and because of this it will not be able to make use of advanced HARM targeting modes.


Edited by QuiGon

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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I know that A-10C and F-5E have that type of RWR interface with handoff sep and other filters. For SEAD, I guess you require a panoramic receiver, a signal analysis unit, and more or less, signal distribution panel to discern the signals. Sort of dangerous waters narrowband waterfall type of analysis. And that is to just tell the type.

 

I am not sure if RWR in hifi modules can have a scripted screen failure (not audio failure though). That would make a good exercise in identifying type of threat by ear as I read more into SEAD school methodology. They are required to analyse threats by tone. The other side would be an audio failure without screen failure to simulate circuitry problems and train for keeping eyes on RWR.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I am not sure if RWR in hifi modules can have a scripted screen failure (not audio failure though). That would make a good exercise in identifying type of threat by ear as I read more into SEAD school methodology. They are required to analyse threats by tone. The other side would be an audio failure without screen failure to simulate circuitry problems and train for keeping eyes on RWR.

On this regard I can really recommend the Viggen and the ELINT features of it's ECM pod: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=182490

It can analyse the radar frequency of SAMs and the RWR plays a tone that corresponds to the SAM frequency: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184283

I was looking forward to the moment when the community would start doing research on this. You did notice that the PRF-frequency is the actual tone as you hear it in the cockpit? The carrier-frequency and PRF is automatically estimated from the max detection range of the radar so it supports new units added to DCS. I am very proud of the RWR in the Viggen.

 

Edit: Here's a quick explanation how the detection and localisation of SAM threats works based on the Viggen, but it applies to all kind of ELS/ELINT systems: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cRKo8IY4GF8bXhUq8LJeRJKLc4oXJwwLeUp2_xXy7C8/edit#slide=id.p3


Edited by QuiGon

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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On this regard I can really recommend the Viggen and the ELINT features of it's ECM pod: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=182490

It can analyse the radar frequency of SAMs and the RWR plays a tone that corresponds to the SAM frequency: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184283

 

 

Edit: Here's a quick explanation how the detection and localisation of SAM threats works based on the Viggen, but it applies to all kind of ELS/ELINT systems: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cRKo8IY4GF8bXhUq8LJeRJKLc4oXJwwLeUp2_xXy7C8/edit#slide=id.p3

 

Good find QuiGon! thanks

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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