Jump to content

Harrier Gas Mileage (vs A-10C)


The AMRAAMer
 Share

Recommended Posts

The A-10C is extremely fuel efficient with a fuel capacity of 11,000 lbs, it uses about 20 pounds of gas per nautical mile at military power, max weight, low altitude. This fuel mileage is increased even more if you cruise at around angels 15, where fuel mileage is better.

 

So:

 

1. How does the Harrier compare in terms of fuel efficiency?

 

2. Is it able to loiter for extended periods of time like the Hog? Or is it more like the F-18 where you strike a target or two and then egress?

 

3. Are fuel tanks always necessary?

 

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have spent limited time in the Harrier so far, but it does suck gas!! I ran out of fuel trying to hurry up and land after I noticed the fuel warning lights. I don't think loitering much is going to be a thing in the Harrier. I never really worry much about fuel in the Hawg, in the Harrier I think its going to be an issue. Tanks, and fuel management will be important.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Gigabyte GA97XSLI

Core i7 4790 @ 4.0 Ghz

MSI GTX 1080ti

32 Mb RAM DDR3-2133

512GB SSD for DCS

HP Reverb VR HMD

Thrustmaster Warthog & MFG Crosswind

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing beats the hog for loiter time.

 

At low level in the AV8B you're easily going to use 10-12,000 PPH with a combat load and decent speed, and if you like throttle it'll drink 18,000 PPH+ at sea level. Compared to the A-10C which maxes out at less than 7,000 PPH IIRC. You can get the AV8B down around 6,000PPH at angels 30 with a good cruising speed.

 

You drink a lot more fuel in the AV8B but you also spend half the time transiting to and from the AO.

 

For a more practical example, I can take off from Batumi with a 4 Mavericks, a gun, two AIM9s, and a full internal load of fuel (~7,800LBS IIRC). I can fly all the way to Sokhumi, shack four tanks, and return to Batumi with 4,000LBS of fuel upon touchdown.

Intel 9600K@4.9GHz, Asus Z390, 32GB DDR4 2400MHz, EVGA GTX 1070, Custom Water Cooling, 970 EVO 500GB NVMe, 2TB of Mechanical Storage

 

34" UltraWide 3440x1440 Curved Monitor, 21" MFD monitor, TIR5

 

My Pit Build, VKB Gunfighter Pro w/WH Grip, TMWH Throttle, MFG Crosswinds W/Combat Pedals, Cougar MFDs, Custom A-10C panels, Custom Helo Collective, SimShaker with Transducer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can take off from Batumi with a 4 Mavericks, a gun, two AIM9s, and a full internal load of fuel (~7,800LBS IIRC)

 

And I'm assuming that even though other weapons can be loaded on the outer pylons, AIM-9s are always taken? Much like how bombs never make it to the outer pylons of a Hog, which are almost always taken up by Sidewinders and ECM?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I'm assuming that even though other weapons can be loaded on the outer pylons, AIM-9s are always taken? Much like how bombs never make it to the outer pylons of a Hog, which are almost always taken up by Sidewinders and ECM?

 

You can take the Sidearm on the outer pylons too for some SEAD.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look at it this way. The Harrier has 23K thrust, while the Mirage has 14K without afterburner. All that thrust is gonna require a lot of fuel, but also means you can run quite low RPM in cruise, and get a decent milage out of it.

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| MSI Z87-G45 Gaming | i5-4670K @ 4.3Ghz | 32Gb DDR3 1600 | Asus GTX 1070 Strix OC | Samsung 850 Evo 250 & 500Gb | 40" Sony FullHD | Oculus Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog Stick (19.5cm extension) & Throttle | MFG Crosswind | Windows 10 |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can get a decent distance out of her, if flown right.

The old Pegasus engine is one hell of a hot-gas-exhaust-fan with it's 23.500lbf of thrust.

You don't have to slam the throttle all the time. I fly my Maverick Runs with 55-60% RPM wich is more than enough. Also, for increased efficiency you can swith the Flaps to off so they retract completely.

Modules: Well... all of 'em

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Motherboard: ASUS Maximus VIII Hero | CPU: i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | RAM: 32GB Corsair Vengance LPX DDR4 | GPU: GTX TITAN X (Maxwell) | SSD1: 256GB NVMe SSD System | SSD2: 250GB Games | HDD 4TB WD Red

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a german saying in regards of motors and engines in general is "kraft kommt von kraftstoff" losely translated it means "power/performance comes from fuel" so the engine has more thrust, the thing is faster. so you are paying this better speed and engine power with fuel^^ this is normal

i had also to get used to the "fly there, drop bombs, go home". its a differnt air plane with a different set of tactics, skills and other advantages/disadvantages.

 

but as other already stated. go up higher, retract flaps, reduce engine power abit for flights to the AO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote from a real Marine infantryman I was drinking with the other day. "Harriers show up for battle just in time to RTB for fuel"

Airdog

| Asus ROG Strix Z370-E Mobo | i7 8700K @ 4.7 | 32 GB DDR4@3200mhz | Gigabyte 2080Ti OC 11GB| Samsung M.2 960 Evo 250Gb and 500Gb | Win10 Pro | Hotas Warthog #02743 | Track IR 5 | Toshiba 47" 120hz LED | Acer 23" Touchscreen | HELIOS |Oculus Rift-S|

 

http://www.blackknightssquadron.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s not that the Harrier has especially high fuel consumption, rather that many are used to the A-10 which has exceptionally low fuel consumption. The Harrier is like most “fighter” and attack aircraft in that accounting and planning for fuel requirements and the use of drop tanks and/or in flight refuelling are an essential part of flying the aircraft.

 

If you don’t fly efficient mission profiles you very easily find he aircraft flying half as far/as long as if you do. There’s a reason carriage of drop tanks is common on most aircraft, especially on air to surface missions.

 

I think many people, coming from the A-10 in particular, will also need to get used to the fact that they can’t spend all day flying around in circles looking through a targeting pod for specific vehicles, or messing about dropping one bomb on one truck at a time. Youlll need to get in, drop your ordnance on target, and get out (and then perhaps repeat).

 

I’m looking forward to it.

 

Spoiler

Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme, Intel 9900K (5Ghz), 64Gb 3600Mhz, MSi RTX 3090, Schiit Modi/Magi DAC/AMP, ASUS PG43UQ, Hotas Warthog, RealSimulator FSSB3, 2x TM MFDs + DCS MFDs, MFG Crosswinds, Elgato Steamdeck XL

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I kind of like it - it brings AAR into the realm of actually possibly being required for some missions.

i7-4790k @ 4.4GHZ, 32GB G. Skill Ripjaws DDR-2133 RAM, EVGA GTX 1080Ti FTW3, Crucial M500 SSD, VKB MCG, TWCS Throttle, MFG Crosswind, TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote from a real Marine infantryman I was drinking with the other day. "Harriers show up for battle just in time to RTB for fuel"

 

I am also a former US Marine Infantryman, and although we do joke about the statement regarding Harriers showing up just in time to RTB, there does need to be some clarification on this statement. Yes, Harriers cannot loiter for days like an A10, but I can tell you that Harrier pilots are VERY efficient when coming in and taking out targets. They are a sight for sore eyes and those guys will remain on station and return on fumes if they have to.

 

As far as flying it, as others have stated, you can extend you available flight time just by flying it right. You don't need to be at 80 or 90% the whole time. Dropping down to 55 or 60% will increase "fuel mileage" quite a bit. Just my two cents.


Edited by MadDog08

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am also a former US Marine Infantryman, and although we do joke about the statement regarding Harriers showing up just in time to RTB, there does need to be some clarification on this statement. Yes, Harriers cannot loiter for days like an A10, but I can tell you that Harrier pilots are VERY efficient when coming in and taking out targets. They are a sight for sore eyes and those guys will remain on station and return on fumes if they have to.

 

As far as flying it, as others have stated, you can extend you available flight time just by flying it right. You don't need to be at 80 or 90% the whole time. Dropping down to 55 or 60% will increase "fuel mileage" quite a bit. Just my two cents.

 

That's pretty much how the rest of our conversation went. I just was adding "fuel" to the fire on this topic. I was in aviation (military and civilian) as a mechanic for 20 years...i know all to much about about fuel consumption...its the driving factor behind everything at the airlines.

Airdog

| Asus ROG Strix Z370-E Mobo | i7 8700K @ 4.7 | 32 GB DDR4@3200mhz | Gigabyte 2080Ti OC 11GB| Samsung M.2 960 Evo 250Gb and 500Gb | Win10 Pro | Hotas Warthog #02743 | Track IR 5 | Toshiba 47" 120hz LED | Acer 23" Touchscreen | HELIOS |Oculus Rift-S|

 

http://www.blackknightssquadron.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote from a real Marine infantryman I was drinking with the other day. "Harriers show up for battle just in time to RTB for fuel"

 

That's true for any single engine fast jet. :thumbup:

Mirage fanatic !

I7-7700K/ MSI GTX 1080Ti Gaming X/ RAM 32 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Saitek X-55 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Rift S

M-2000C X-55 VR profile / M-2000C custom SERVAL symbols assignation

Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may be humorous to hear an A-10C, F/A-18C/E, F-15E check in with 15-30 minute playtimes before needing to AAR and return. However, they carry a whole lot more options for the customer to use to engage targets and provide a much higher situational awareness of the area than other, long endurance assets could provide.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

CPU - Intel 8088 @ 4.77 MHz; Memory - 128KB; 360KB double-sided

5 1/4" full-height floppy disk drive; 10MB Seagate ST-412 hard drive

JG-1 MiG-21bis Checklist

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The A-10C is extremely fuel efficient with a fuel capacity of 11,000 lbs, it uses about 20 pounds of gas per nautical mile at military power, max weight, low altitude. This fuel mileage is increased even more if you cruise at around angels 15, where fuel mileage is better.

 

So:

 

1. How does the Harrier compare in terms of fuel efficiency?

 

2. Is it able to loiter for extended periods of time like the Hog? Or is it more like the F-18 where you strike a target or two and then egress?

 

3. Are fuel tanks always necessary?

 

Thanks

 

I was able to get the AV-8B down to about 10-12 lbs/nm, ~32-34,000ft, ~80 PPM and ~450 kts ground speed. Just don't go above 37,000, your engine will lose power permanently. [Edit: Is that a bug? Seems so. It runs as usual, just NO power.]

 

I don't recall what my load out at the time was to get 10-12lbs/nm, I think four AIM-9's and I just ditched my tanks so I was slightly heavy with fuel. I didn't learn about turning off your flaps at that time so I was still cruising with 5 degrees instead of 0. I can try again with 0, may get a little bit more out of it. Would be nice to get below 10.

 

Flying with a full bomb load however, it may be more beneficial to run the 5 degrees of flaps to drop your AoA enough to be more effective than running no flaps and a higher AoA. Again, something I need to test (too much work and dealing with kids, ahh!!).

 

I mainly try to keep it under 200 PPM. Once you get over 80-90% throttle the fuel flow goes through the roof (300 PPM+). It seems like it's a good engine though, thrust-wise at lower rpms so I typically fly 120-100 PPM and it does well. 120-150 PPM in climbs, 80-100 PPM in cruise works for me.

 

It will be helpful once our VREST page is active so we can see optimal speed to get the best range at the current alt and the optimal alt/speed. For some general range calculations, 80 ppm, 450 knots, ~11 lbs/nm with 7700lbs of fuel should get you 700nm of range and an endurance of about an hour and a half. You'll use a bit more on takeoff/climb but a bit less on glide down to landing.

 

I'd say the realistic one way trip is probably closer to 600nm, 300nm combat radius which is I believe what the real jet is quoted at. Until the VREST page is active I think I'll continue working on this one small command line program to calculate all my fuel, range, endurance times, etc. Same could be done in Excel as well if you guys want to bother with it.


Edited by Realizm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

to put it like this

 

Harrier is like a Honda Civic with Gas mileage of a Chevy Silverado, and the A10C is a Chevy Silverado with the Gas mileage of a Honda Civic. :lol:

 

 

 

Build:

 

 

 

 

 

Windows 10 64 bit,

 

Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z370- E Motherboard, Intel Core i7 8700k ( Noctua NH14S cooler),Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 32gb ram (2666 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia Gtx 1080 8gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; WD 1TB HDD, Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at the syllabus of vmat 203

Cruising is done at 60 ppm without any stores. Cruising with a usual loadout gets you up to 90-120 ppm. Climb to your cruising altitude and then throttle back to your desired ppm or up to 6.5 AOA to be most fuel efficient! Flaps at 0 helps a lot.

476 vFG Discord | 476 vFG Website 

AMD RADEON RX 6900 XT, AMD RYZEN 5600X, 32GB DDR4 @3800 16-19-16-36, MSI B550-A PRO, HP REVERB G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the A-10 is designed to sleep over friendlies, the Harrier is designed to pop in, create a mess, and egress, pretty much like the Viggen.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the A-10 is designed to sleep over friendlies, the Harrier is designed to pop in, create a mess, and egress, pretty much like the Viggen.

 

That, pretty much. It is important to understand while both were originally conceived for CAS, their approaches are almost contrary. The A-10 flies from a regular base and stays on station until it is needed, more or less derived from how the A-1 Skyraiders were often used over Vietnam. The Harrier only does quick jumps in comparison, but its STOL abilities mean its base can be almost anything, so it can fly from just a few miles behind the battle lines if needed.

 

The British actually had people drive by car out west of their bases in West Germany in regular intervals to check out places like motorway straights, larger wood clearings or supermarket parking lots which they intended to use as makeshift bases during the inevitable retreat from the Soviets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...