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A proposal for the usage role and business model of the CE2


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Hello.

 

As the conversation on the Christen Eagle II seems more polarized than the US political field,

I'm trying to come at this whole thing from a different angle.

 

Before any of you post your frustration on this thread consider the following:

The Christen Eagle II is coming to DCS regardless of your frustration and negative view on the module.

In that light, now that it is coming, we might as well find some use for it.

 

 

Developers hear me out here:

Consider a sim-player from the civilian-simulator side. What are the greatest hurdles to get to enjoy DCS? In my opinion: controls.

Setting up controls and curves to axes is hard work for anyone coming in fresh. You all remember this when coming to DCS for the first time.

 

With the Christen Eagle II, if I understood correctly, the front seat pretty much only has the control stick, rudder and throttle.

Not much to bind to your controllers, eh? Keep this in the back of your head and read on.

 

 

How would I introduce a civ-sim friend to DCS and it's awesome aerodynamic modeling (and systems)?

I would like to show an aircraft that flies well, does not require a ton of preparation and is easy to fly.

 

The Su-25T is not really a great aircraft to fly for starters - it is heavy and cumbersome in comparison

+ it is an DC3-level aircraft, so my friend wouldn't really get the message throught

about "DCS has well made and clickable cockpits".

The Civil-Mustang is powerful yes, and has a clickable cockpit...

but boy WW2-planes are unforgiving to fly and to really enjoy it (and to have a positive introduction to the sim) requires some work with the control setup.

 

 

After all this "prep talk" please consider the following:

CE2 front cockpit would be free to fly in the multiplayer, if another player occupies the rear seat (i.e. spawns the aircraft).

 

 

Let that sink in for a minute . . .

 

 

Think of what this could mean:

My civ-sim friend would get a free ride on an aircraft with enough power, responsive controls and easy, yet fully modeled systems.

No need to set up controls in any complex way (you really need just the 4 axes - pitch, roll, yaw and throttle),

and the rear seat pilot will control the systems, which then the front-seat pilot can see the effect of, allowing them to experience

the "wonders of the clickable cockpit".

 

Now say, on the same server, on the same airfield next to you spawns some fighters or attackers...

they spool up, engines roar and they fly off to a mission, or do some aerobatics on top...

Wouldn't that be an amazing selling point and an opportunity?!

 

I know you can already spawn into the Su-25T, but you do that solo. Going in solo for the first time is, for some, a great barrier to entry.

In a dual-seat aircraft the new player doesn't have to know how to fly the aircraft or operate the systems. He/she can just enjoy what is offered.

 

 

This system would still run sales, since you couldn't fly the CE2 in SP, and you can't really operate it from the front seat alone

(according to the information on the module description on your website), so saying this would just create endless free-loaders is a moot point.

It should also be made so, that the front seat could only be spawned in once the aircraft's rear seat is occupied.

 

An additional benefit from this is, that all those skeptics have a chance to try the flight model with someone - possibly driving sales.

 

 

 

 

This would be a win-win for everyone.

Firstly, your module would get additional visibility - most likely driving more sales.

Secondly, the barrier to entry for DCS would be lowered.

And thirdly, there would be a more comfortable free stepping stone for civ-simmers to join the ranks of DCS-simming and really get into the core of the game.

 

There can never be too many simmers here - regardless of what they fly.

 

 

 

Thank you for reading through this proposal.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet


Edited by MikeMikeJuliet
I got my front and rear seat mixed up. Point still stands.
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amazing view of this debate, and i am totally on a line with you. i dont see the problem with this module. yes it was a bummer to not see a new redfor plane, but what does it matter. DCS is a great game and has a great engine, lets take advantage of that!

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Correction for one little mistake in your post:

 

It's actually the front seat of the Christen Eagle II that has very limited controls. For solo flight, only the rear seat of the CE2 is occupied.

 

That said, I think it would be cool to have a free "front seat multiplayer only" module for friends of CE2 owners. It would be a good way to demo DCS to my friends, especially those who have absolutely zero flight experience.

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This is a genius idea! Hopefully it catches on! I have a brother who doesn't really know how to fly but I would love to teach him and get him involved in DCS without being overwhelmed at the start with the learning curve and investment. Your idea would be great for this!

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Correction for one little mistake in your post:

 

It's actually the front seat of the Christen Eagle II that has very limited controls. For solo flight, only the rear seat of the CE2 is occupied.

 

That said, I think it would be cool to have a free "front seat multiplayer only" module for friends of CE2 owners. It would be a good way to demo DCS to my friends, especially those who have absolutely zero flight experience.

 

You are indeed correct. I misread the announcement info. I'll correct the OP.

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It's a very nice idea. And i'll second that without restriction as it is my life goal to bring people to the wonderful world of simulation. I already did with the Gazelle, i'd do it even faster with this plane if it was as your described. There's indeed a business model to explore, and a game mode to re-energize : coop. (Or as we call it, shared cockpit)

 

It would transform my big no to this plane into a big yes. Because let's be honest here, right now i'd rather prefer to let my friend buy X-Plane during summer/winter sales then do a shared cockpit on anything possible, than to make them pay for this only plane without being sure they'll stick to this. It's quite an investment for a single plane.

 

Plus, it would force to do things the right way : you start in shared cockpit, then one day the newbie buys it then you can explore formation or combat simulation.

 

It. Would. Be. Great. And true to the game's title "Digital Combat Simulator".

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It sounds good but I'm not sure about the benefit vs the cost of implementing it. Just look at the list of multiplayer servers and you see that a very small part of the community is flying online. How many sales could potentially be gained from newcomers riding along in a free seat...? The new account copy-protection system may allow for this but there are obviously a lot of other changes that would need to be made.

 

I think the CE2 module will be great for attracting new people to DCS even without a free seat. Despite having unparallelled flight models in the consumer market, one of the most common arguments against DCS among FSX/X-Plane users is that it's not a "flight simulator" but a "combat simulator". Having something purely civilian available is going to make a lot of these people interested and once they're in, they may not be so discouraged to try the combat part of it.

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First of all, there is a reason why airplanes like CE2 are NOT used for training rookie pilots in real life. They are twitchy, have very sensitive controls and easy to exceed structural or pilots limits. Of all the aircraft you've mentioned, this will probably be the hardest to fly well. It's not a basic trainer, it's an equivalent of a 2 seat sports car that you can build in your garage, like a Caterham.

 

Second, what you're asking bout shared cockpit would require some fundamental changes in how ED distributes the addons. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but ED would have to redirect resources to make these changes in the core, and we all know that they already have enough on their plate.

 

The Christen Eagle II is coming to DCS regardless of your frustration and negative view on the module.

In that light, now that it is coming, we might as well find some use for it.

 

Or simply not buy it and move on. Or buy yak52 if you really want to do basic pilot training.

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GREAT IDEA! I, myself, was STRONGLY against this aircrafts addition to the DCS hangars but I think this could work. Yes, these kind of aircraft are twitchy and extremely sensitive by nature and not used for training IRL. In a sim, you crash, so what? You respawn and try again. AND HAVE SERIOUS FUN! Besides, as a two seater you always have ”an instructor” with you. Of course I know nothing of the programing hurdles this would take to implement but that’s not my job. Only to buy or not to buy.

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First of all, there is a reason why airplanes like CE2 are NOT used for training rookie pilots in real life. They are twitchy, have very sensitive controls and easy to exceed structural or pilots limits. Of all the aircraft you've mentioned, this will probably be the hardest to fly well. It's not a basic trainer, it's an equivalent of a 2 seat sports car that you can build in your garage, like a Caterham.

 

Second, what you're asking bout shared cockpit would require some fundamental changes in how ED distributes the addons. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but ED would have to redirect resources to make these changes in the core, and we all know that they already have enough on their plate.

 

 

 

Or simply not buy it and move on. Or buy yak52 if you really want to do basic pilot training.

 

I hear you, but:

 

firstly - I never said this would be for training rookies - it would be for introducing to the DCS franchise in a fun way.

 

secondly - I never said it would be too easy to control - but the ease of only needing to bind 4 axes to fly (no buttons whatsoever possibly) would decrease the hurdle to enjoy the sim. The pilot on the rear seat is still there, so one doesn't even need to know how to properly fly the aircraft. Similar to jumping in an actual real life CEII or equivalent aircraft. You get to try it, have some fun, see and feel the fidelity and so forth.

 

I can't claim to know what it would require from ED:s part to implement such a feature. That said I doubt it would be that cumbersome.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

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I think the whole plane should be added to the free stable of planes of DCS. LNS/M3 could have an arrangement with ED for something like 2-3 years of payments that would make both sides happy.

 

ED would have a great entry level aerobatic plane that would bring those aerobatic customers to DCS. M3 would have sure supply of money to actually develop next plane and fix Mig21.

 

There is a good risk that the market for a 30$ small entry lever aerobatic plane will not be sufficient to keep M3 afloat.

 

I think from those 30$ quite a sum represents the protection system and EDs fee. Making it free would remove necessity for protection and reverse the fee direction.

 

imho selling it at 30$ is very risky and if M3 closes next year... we know very well why.

 

P.S. making it half free will increase costs of production.


Edited by zaelu

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secondly - I never said it would be too easy to control - but the ease of only needing to bind 4 axes to fly (no buttons whatsoever possibly) would decrease the hurdle to enjoy the sim. The pilot on the rear seat is still there, so one doesn't even need to know how to properly fly the aircraft. Similar to jumping in an actual real life CEII or equivalent aircraft. You get to try it, have some fun, see and feel the fidelity and so forth.

 

This still sounds like something that can be done equally well in any other dual control airplane that we have in DCS. Do we really need a specialized machine just for that? Besides, if you want to introduce someone to DCS, why not put him in an ARMED airplane and let him blow some stuff up, instead of just watching how you fly barrel rolls and immelmans in a twitchy machine that he has little chance of even taking off or landing by himself.

 

I can't claim to know what it would require from ED:s part to implement such a feature. That said I doubt it would be that cumbersome.

 

I wouldn't hold my hopes very high, ED was unable to even solve the issue of needing assets pack to fly a MP mission where those assets are used.

 

The thing is that even in civilian flight simulators like Xplane or FSX/P3D, those aerobatic hotrods are a terrible niche, as they are only useful for flying stunts over local airfield. I don't think in DCS it will be any different.


Edited by some1

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First of all, there is a reason why airplanes like CE2 are NOT used for training rookie pilots in real life. They are twitchy, have very sensitive controls and easy to exceed structural or pilots limits. Of all the aircraft you've mentioned, this will probably be the hardest to fly well. It's not a basic trainer, it's an equivalent of a 2 seat sports car that you can build in your garage, like a Caterham.

 

Second, what you're asking bout shared cockpit would require some fundamental changes in how ED distributes the addons. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but ED would have to redirect resources to make these changes in the core, and we all know that they already have enough on their plate.

 

 

 

Or simply not buy it and move on. Or buy yak52 if you really want to do basic pilot training.

 

Reality has nothing to do with simulation on that matter. You may, like me, have started with a F-16 right on. Tho, many people gave up by these planes said to be too complicated. It's not the case with the Eagle. You can start right off the bat with a funny, simple & training-compatible airplane. And the Eagle is way funnier than the Yak-52. I've got friends wanting to learn dogfight for Star Citizen, it could be done on the Eagle.


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Reality has nothing to do with simulation on that matter. You may, like me, have started with a F-16 right on. Tho, many people gave up by these planes said to be too complicated.

 

Those people simply chose WWII or some early jets. As you said, reality has nothing to do with simulation. In the sim, if you can't handle the aircraft and crash, you just hit refly and try again until you master it. CE2 is not a trainer for anything.

 

I've got friends wanting to learn dogfight for Star Citizen, it could be done on the Eagle.

 

How are you supposed to learn dogfighting in the Eagle? By shouting "pew-pew, I killed you"? Because it's so agile, you'll learn all sorts of bad habits even trying to mock dogfights. It will have nothing in common with dogfighting in space sims either.

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How would I introduce a civ-sim friend to DCS and it's awesome aerodynamic modeling (and systems)?

I would like to show an aircraft that flies well, does not require a ton of preparation and is easy to fly.

 

 

After all this "prep talk" please consider the following:

CE2 front cockpit would be free to fly in the multiplayer, if another player occupies the rear seat (i.e. spawns the aircraft).

 

 

Let that sink in for a minute . . .

 

 

Think of what this could mean:

My civ-sim friend would get a free ride on an aircraft with enough power, responsive controls and easy, yet fully modeled systems.

No need to set up controls in any complex way (you really need just the 4 axes - pitch, roll, yaw and throttle),

and the rear seat pilot will control the systems, which then the front-seat pilot can see the effect of, allowing them to experience

the "wonders of the clickable cockpit".

 

Now say, on the same server, on the same airfield next to you spawns some fighters or attackers...

they spool up, engines roar and they fly off to a mission, or do some aerobatics on top...

Wouldn't that be an amazing selling point and an opportunity?!

 

This system would still run sales, since you couldn't fly the CE2 in SP, and you can't really operate it from the front seat alone

(according to the information on the module description on your website), so saying this would just create endless free-loaders is a moot point.

It should also be made so, that the front seat could only be spawned in once the aircraft's rear seat is occupied.

 

An additional benefit from this is, that all those skeptics have a chance to try the flight model with someone - possibly driving sales.

 

This would be a win-win for everyone.

Firstly, your module would get additional visibility - most likely driving more sales.

Secondly, the barrier to entry for DCS would be lowered.

And thirdly, there would be a more comfortable free stepping stone for civ-simmers to join the ranks of DCS-simming and really get into the core of the game.

 

 

I like it :thumbup:

 

Such a sales man MikeMikeJuliet, you just needed to add, that if they eject in game from the plane, they get redirected and land on the website sales page automatically.:D

 

Better than a buy now button popping up after 15 minutes...

 

Plus, these new aircraft for DCS are going to be great as target drones anyway, so you'll be landing on that sales page a lot.:D

 

Can we get an orange livery please..

 

MQM-107E-Streakers_US-AirForce-620x235.jpg

 

.


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For sure, I appreciate your proposal but i.m.o. she is not an aircraft for the beginners / rookies but specific for the aces; here it is not about to push some buttons but about the highest class of flying: maybe she is the most difficult aircraft to master in DCS (when flying is regarded).

The best Aces in WW2 were offcourse they, who mastered the aerobatics (such as Adolf Galland) :)


Edited by wavn

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If anything I hope this opens the door to WW1 bombers and Fighters, True seat of the pants flying, no aubergine to guide you when manouvering, no bitching betty telling you your oil pressure is low, you know its low because it covers most of your face and goggles.

 

Good luck M3 I look forward to seeing the results!

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But ok lets say your right? Why would they not look at the L-39? Its not exactly complicated, Or even the C-101 and hawk once rear seat is back, L-39 has two models without weapons with weapons best of both worlds so to say?

 

Multi crew would make the eagle a better sale, But still apart from dicking about in DCS its redundant.

 

Often on steam forums the question popss up im new to DCS what should i buy, There second is i dont want it to be complicated, There either A pointed to FC3 or B the M-2000 every time.

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I like it :thumbup:

 

Such a sales man MikeMikeJuliet, you just needed to add, that if they eject in game from the plane, they get redirected and land on the website sales page automatically.:D

 

Better than a buy now button popping up after 15 minutes...

 

Plus, these new aircraft for DCS are going to be great as target drones anyway, so you'll be landing on that sales page a lot.:D

 

Can we get an orange livery please..

 

MQM-107E-Streakers_US-AirForce-620x235.jpg

 

.

 

I'm not trying to be a salesman here. Quite the contrary. I hate bad business practices and unethical money grubbing.

 

My point in all of this is that we as a community cannot do anything about CE2 coming to DCS. It is there regardless. And with the assumption that the flightmodel and what little systems it has are done well, I don't see why it shouldn't be put to good use. Military aircraft are my cup of tea, but to actively push the civilian planes out of DCS is just elitism.

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Actually, a open world has not plausible meanwhile the engine has not evolve on capabilities (better and easy map making).

More news to the front

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This still sounds like something that can be done equally well in any other dual control airplane that we have in DCS. Do we really need a specialized machine just for that? Besides, if you want to introduce someone to DCS, why not put him in an ARMED airplane and let him blow some stuff up, instead of just watching how you fly barrel rolls and immelmans in a twitchy machine that he has little chance of even taking off or landing by himself.

 

 

 

I wouldn't hold my hopes very high, ED was unable to even solve the issue of needing assets pack to fly a MP mission where those assets are used.

 

The thing is that even in civilian flight simulators like Xplane or FSX/P3D, those aerobatic hotrods are a terrible niche, as they are only useful for flying stunts over local airfield. I don't think in DCS it will be any different.

 

My point still stands. Any armed aircraft requires you to map controls and the start is a hassle. You also need to know how weapon systems work, at least partly. My premise is that here lies an opportunity to get players in, who come here primarily for the awesome flight models, and who have spent their time flying civilian-sims. In said cases I believe the easiest step to take is to come try how DCS handles under a familiar aircraft. If you only fly civ-sims a military aircraft with weapons is not going to feel familiar to you.

 

You may disagree of course.

 

It may be difficult to fly, but at the same time it is also responsive and something I personally would think people find fun just to try. And who ever said the front-seater can't take-off or land? The aircraft has fixed landing gear. That is the simplicity of it - you don't need anything other than the 4 axes on it to try it.

 

Regarding the WW2 asset pack, that discussion is not relevant here. It is not about ED not being able to do it, it is about them not wanting to.

 

 

Again, I am trying to find some use and a function for this bird without outright dismissing it completely - because it is going to be a part of DCS regardless of how much you, or me, or anyone else would want it out.

 

 

Just for the record, I am an optimist - most of the time. I don't see any harm in trying. DCS is not going to change to a civil-airliner-sim because someone had the audacity to bring an aerobatics aircraft in here.

The argument of the game changing it's format because non-armed aircraft are added is in my opinion ridiculous, but we can have a separate discussion on that. Aircraft fly the same regardless of what they carry under the wing...

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

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But ok lets say your right? Why would they not look at the L-39? Its not exactly complicated, Or even the C-101 and hawk once rear seat is back, L-39 has two models without weapons with weapons best of both worlds so to say?

 

Multi crew would make the eagle a better sale, But still apart from dicking about in DCS its redundant.

 

Often on steam forums the question popss up im new to DCS what should i buy, There second is i dont want it to be complicated, There either A pointed to FC3 or B the M-2000 every time.

 

Two reasons:

 

1 - Because the CE2 is coming. I'm just trying to find a place for it instead of going about and spreading flames.

2 - Even if they are not complex, they are still more complex than the CE2.

 

And some people just want to go about and fly around. Jets feel quite different than prop-planes. My point somewhat hinges on the idea of a civ-simmer coming to DCS. I admit that. It is not the strongest starting points, but such people do exist.

 

 

As a side not - FC3 aircraft are all good and well, but wouldn't you want to showcase DCS with something that is fully modeled?

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Ive also stated in posts that for the civi stuff to work they would want to fly from say london to new york, Not Tbilisi to Mozdock, DCS would have to make an open world and not just maps.

 

This is very true. Then again, we are talking about an aerobatics aircraft here - not bringing a 747 into DCS.

 

 

I'm not saying DCS should be riddled with all dem civil aircraft... I'm saying that I'm trying not to dismiss one when one is introduced. In my country, Military aircraft exist in the same airspace and aerodromes as civilian ones.

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