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M-2000C Update Discussion


Zeus67
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Waiting also for the detailed post from Capt Smiley!

From my limited knowledge, the M2k is designed to be flown with the autopilot engaged. In the front part of the stick is a trigger (autopilot standby on our keybindings) that is designed to be depressed

everytime the pilot graps the stick to make a roll/ pitch input. This disengages temporarily the autopilot, after the stick input is made and the trigger is released, the autopilot reengages and the plane is automatically trimmed. So you have to map the above mentioned key to your Hotas, engage the AP, depress the standby AP button and make the desired input, release the button and voila! I was also frustrated at first, but now it's impressive! Capt. Smiley must now describe the design and operating limitations of the system, i don't know if it's used the entire flight, even during dogfights.

Some others details, during landing, the throttle is moved to idle slowly at 50feet (combined with 2-3 short pitch up inputs to flare the aircraft), exactly as I have been told from real M2000 pilots. In the previous FM this would smash the airplane on the ground.


Edited by jaguara5
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Hi all, I'll try to make this a separate post but for quickness will go ahead and do it here...

 

From multiple feedback including some with time on the aircraft the design of how the aircraft flies is a bit different from how it was in previous version of DCS. Unfortunately rough data was available on the behavior and estimates were made incorrectly and with that many of you have gained a "muscle memory" for how it should be controlled.

 

Lets talk about the low speed behavior. From feedback the aircraft should be more "AOA" controlled in low speed. Previously it was heavily pitch rate controlled. Now it is more like the FBW is providing a fake positive stability feedback so that your intuition of control is like that of flying a Cessna or something. You can trim out the necessity for constant stick offset just like in a Cessna but you have one thing better, the Autopilot. As you increase speed through around 275 KCAS the airframe transitions to G-load guided flight.

 

What the autopilot does is get you on a guided flight path. So when you engage it, it automatically trims the aircraft for the path you are at when you engaged it or what it needs to be at for the given mode (Alt Hold for example). The beauty of how it works now (and didn't work before) is that when you disengage the autopilot either by turning off or going into standby, the aircraft maintains the trims the autopilot put it in. The idea behind this is that for most phases of flight you have AP engaged trimming things out for you, while you use off or standby to maneuver yourself to where you need to be.

 

At the end of the day the behavior should be not to fly like a computer but to have a computer that lets the aircraft still feel like a normal aircraft (just with great maneuverability).

 

Trim can be reset by pushing the FBW reset button.

 

I do have some issues on hand that I need to list out that I am aware of and will working on for future updates.

 

Let me know if you guys have other questions on it.

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Now the AP is mandatory to keep the Mirage trimed.

 

I enabled AP and you are right, as CptSmiley said, it automatically trims the plane for you...problem is you have to enable and disable the AP if you want auto trim because it seems like AP does not auto-trim constantly as far as I have tried...(EDIT: Sniped by CptSmiley about AP)

 

Also, what about tail sliding?¿?¿? I can't manage to achieve it...any suggestions?

 

thanks!


Edited by watermanpc

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problem is you have to enable and disable the AP if you want auto trim because it seems like AP does not auto-trim constantly as far as I have tried...

 

What do you mean? Like it only trims when turned on and then if you tell the AP to climb for instance and then turn the ap off it will not be set with trim?

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Thanks for the info CptSmiley.

Fits good with how I understood with how it seems to be designedm like how the AP standby controls on the stick are grip activated. The new FM feels a lot more like how it looks to fly when seeing real videos. Again no pilot but this feels more intuitive and correct. Love it.

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What do you mean? Like it only trims when turned on and then if you tell the AP to climb for instance and then turn the ap off it will not be set with trim?

 

I mean that AP will trim the plane ONCE when enabled, then, if you disable it or move the stick more than a certain angle (I don't remember what) so that the AP light goes to yellow, it won't trim the plane anymore unless you enable it again...however, using the standby button is the other way to use the AP so that you can push it when you're going to make a maneuver then when releasing it AP will ENABLE again and thus re-trim the plane.

 

Hope it's clear now :)

 

it would be great to have a "constant" auto-trim so that when you release the stick to center, it trims the plane but if its not in the real plane then is ok.


Edited by watermanpc

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I mean that AP will trim the plane ONCE when enabled, then, if you disable it or move the stick more than a certain angle (I don't remember what) so that the AP light goes to yellow, it won't trim the plane anymore unless you enable it again...however, using the standby button is the other way to use the AP so that you can push it when you're going to make a maneuver then when releasing it AP will ENABLE again and thus re-trim the plane.

 

Hope it's clear now :)

 

it would be great to have a "constant" auto-trim so that when you release the stick to center, it trims the plane but if its not in the real plane then is ok.

Oh ok, yeah thats how i understood it worked. If you manouver and light goes yellow then it wont go grin again unless manually activated. Thats why we hace the standby mode.

 

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Oh ok, yeah thats how i understood it worked. If you manouver and light goes yellow then it wont go grin again unless manually activated. Thats why we hace the standby mode.

 

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Correct :)...btw, you can re-enable AP also by pressing Standby button again which is more convenient :)

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Has anyone checked if aerial refueling is harder now? I was juuust getting acceptable at it and was wondering if this fm update will make me even worse.

 

 

Thanks

 

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Is quite easy if you forget all your muscle memory and habits and try to fly like the Mirage is now.

 

Use AP for general trim-attitude and trim hat for fine tunning and you will refuel very easy with some training.

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Use AP for general trim-attitude and trim hat for fine tunning and you will refuel very easy with some training.

 

You are refueling with AP active ?

 

I think I found a little problem with the FM, the performances a on spot from my initial testing but I think the STR is too high around 470kts.

I was able to pull 7G+ sustained with 2 magics, 50% fuel at 15 kft, that is a STR of 14, 14.5 deg/sec.


Edited by myHelljumper

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You are refueling with AP active?.

 

No. I mean im using the AP when approaching the tanker for general triming and then AP off and trim hat for fine tunning. Then is very stable and you only need little pressure on the stick and rudder to connect and keep on the basket.

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No. I mean im using the AP when approaching the tanker for general triming and then AP off and trim hat for fine tunning. Then is very stable and you only need little pressure on the stick and rudder to connect and keep on the basket.

 

Ok, will try refuel to see if it has changed.

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I mean that AP will trim the plane ONCE when enabled, then, if you disable it or move the stick more than a certain angle (I don't remember what) so that the AP light goes to yellow, it won't trim the plane anymore unless you enable it again...however, using the standby button is the other way to use the AP so that you can push it when you're going to make a maneuver then when releasing it AP will ENABLE again and thus re-trim the plane.

 

Hope it's clear now :)

 

it would be great to have a "constant" auto-trim so that when you release the stick to center, it trims the plane but if its not in the real plane then is ok.

 

From what I understand, the aircraft is constantly trimmed when AP is engaged (green light). When AP is on standby (yellow or Amber as described in the M2000C RDM real manual) or is off, the aircraft keeps the latest autotrim provided by the AP but will not autotrim anymore.

To reset the trims you will have to engage FBW reset switch on the left panel.

 

Also when AP is on (Green), the trim hat acts like a ministick, when Standby or off (amber or off) the trilm hat acts like a normal trim switch.

 

You can confirm all the behavior by flying leveled, AP ON (Attitude hold, not Altitude hold) and increase/decrease speed. You should not pich at all.

 

The second test would be to fire something with AP ON, the aircraft should autotrim the aircraft to prevent the roll induced by the asymetric payload. Now if you disengage AP (Amber or Off) just before firing, the aircraft should start rolling due to no autotrim when AP is Amber or Off.

 

From what M2000C pilots say, they usualy never turn the AP Off. Only turned off for AAR (something to do with the auto level feature when bank angle is under 10°).

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I cant find the fbw reset button in key bindings. I wanted to put it on hotas.

 

Known issue? Am I missing something?

 

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From what I understand, the aircraft is constantly trimmed when AP is engaged (green light). When AP is on standby (yellow or Amber as described in the M2000C RDM real manual) or is off, the aircraft keeps the latest autotrim provided by the AP but will not autotrim anymore.

To reset the trims you will have to engage FBW reset switch on the left panel.

 

Also when AP is on (Green), the trim hat acts like a ministick, when Standby or off (amber or off) the trilm hat acts like a normal trim switch.

 

You can confirm all the behavior by flying leveled, AP ON (Attitude hold, not Altitude hold) and increase/decrease speed. You should not pich at all.

 

The second test would be to fire something with AP ON, the aircraft should autotrim the aircraft to prevent the roll induced by the asymetric payload. Now if you disengage AP (Amber or Off) just before firing, the aircraft should start rolling due to no autotrim when AP is Amber or Off.

 

From what M2000C pilots say, they usualy never turn the AP Off. Only turned off for AAR (something to do with the auto level feature when bank angle is under 10°).

 

Yes, you are right about the plane still being trimed CONSTANTLY as long as the AP light is green (AP engaged). One way to test this is by flying very slow, then enable AP and then kick afterburner leting the plane accelerate to a very high speed and you will see how the AP constantly trims the plane (as long as you DONT MAKE MANEUVERS)...

 

however, what I meant is that you cant move the stick to maneuver the plane and then when it's neutral get auto trim automatically because the AP will be disengaged...that's what I meant with "constant auto-trim" even if there is a "constant auto-trim" while the AP IS engaged. But if this is how it works in the real plane then nothing to say :)

 

I cant find the fbw reset button in key bindings. I wanted to put it on hotas.

 

Known issue? Am I missing something?

 

Enviado desde mi Moto Z Play mediante Tapatalk

 

Yeah, same here...seems like there is no keybinding for reset FBW in controls setup. Hope they can add it anytime soon.

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For me the autopilot standby button works as trim reset if the autopilot is off (no green nor yellow light)
Elaborate please. When engaged it simulates you taking the hand off the stick and activating ap

 

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Yes, if you have the AP engaged the autopilot stby works as a standby for the AP and you can manoeuvre the aircraft manually. Let it go and the AP engages again and holds the attitude/heading/alt whatever you chose.

 

If you disengage the AP completely (all AP lights off) then the Autopilot stby button works as trim reset for me.

 

So:

Disenage Autopilot

Press autopilot stby.

Trim should be reset to neutral.

 

 

If you are on the ground with a trim other than neutral the AP warns you. Tone + red light in the annunciator panel.

press autopilot stby on the ground and the light and tone go away.

 

Steps to reproduce:

Startup the AC

trim the ac on the ground

See the light and hear the tone

press AP STBY

Tone and light should be gone because trim is now reset to neutral

 

PS: I have only checked the ground behaviour. This is still as described. Haven't tried midair trim reset this way in the new patch. in 1.5.7 and 2.3 it still works this way.

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however, what I meant is that you cant move the stick to maneuver the plane and then when it's neutral get auto trim automatically because the AP will be disengaged...that's what I meant with "constant auto-trim" even if there is a "constant auto-trim" while the AP IS engaged. But if this is how it works in the real plane then nothing to say :).

 

No offence but I think you are doing it wrong. Let me explain myself.

 

In the real plane the AP disengage lever is located behind the stick, as you can see on this image.

 

The pilot will automatically depress this lever when grabbing the stick. This will put AP on Standby (amber light). Then when releasing the stick (and thus releasing the AP Standby lever) the AP will be reengaged (Green light).

 

What I think you do is forcing on the stick without using the AP standby lever. Wich is fine, it's a feature, but not appropriate for normal operations. When forcing enought on the stick, the FBW understand it as an emergency and put the AP on standby for you. In this case, just give a tap to the AP Standby lever and the light will go back to Green.

 

With this baby, using the AP and AP Standby lever is mandatory. I have binded it to the Pinkie Lever of my Hotas Warthog. It felt a bit strange at the beginning but now I do it even when I am not flying the Mirage... Bad habits :) I emptied all the brake hydrolic circuit of the MiG-21 once... A hell of a landing man!

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Yes, if you have the AP engaged the autopilot stby works as a standby for the AP and you can manoeuvre the aircraft manually. Let it go and the AP engages again and holds the attitude/heading/alt whatever you chose.

 

If you disengage the AP completely (all AP lights off) then the Autopilot stby button works as trim reset for me.

 

So:

Disenage Autopilot

Press autopilot stby.

Trim should be reset to neutral.

 

 

If you are on the ground with a trim other than neutral the AP warns you. Tone + red light in the annunciator panel.

press autopilot stby on the ground and the light and tone go away.

 

Steps to reproduce:

Startup the AC

trim the ac on the ground

See the light and hear the tone

press AP STBY

Tone and light should be gone because trim is now reset to neutral

 

PS: I have only checked the ground behaviour. This is still as described. Haven't tried midair trim reset this way in the new patch. in 1.5.7 and 2.3 it still works this way.

This is interesting! Is it how the real bird works?

 

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