DCS and Pimax

[hansangb]

Agreed, where the Pimax shines is FOV. I love the large FOV and everytime I put my Rift S back on I'm so underwhelmed even though it has slightly less SDE. I don't get all the hype on the Reverb G2, the extra Pimax FOV for me has been well worth it! In BFM it is much easier to get a tally on the bandit. SAM smoke trails are also easier to spot. Overall my neck gets far less of a workout I've noticed because I don't need to find stuff on the soda straw of the Rift S. See the inbound missiles without smoke trails are still hard though.

 

I have a similar system and the 3090 has made a big difference for me as well form my 1080 Ti.

 

Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk

 

It's a matter of priority. Current Reverb has better clarity than 5K+ (I've had both). And G2 is supposed to have better clarity through lens design among other things. As MRTV put it, "blown away" so we'll see.

 

And of course, I prioritized clarity over wider FoV (and honestly, more mature software)

 

But I'd be lying if I didn't say that I miss the wider FoV

[darkman222]

Can someone who has (or had) both, the Pimax 5K with OLED display, and the 8KX with CLPL displays? How is the color and blacks displayed in comparison?

[Gunnars Driver]

If you are taking the DCS dot only labels

 

Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk

 

I use no labels at all and think its quite ok.

 

 

[Snake122]

 

I use no labels at all and think its quite ok.

 

 

Maybe that's the difference between the 5k+ and the Reverb. Just saying, all of my VR experience (5k+, Rift CV1 and S) has never made me feel like I'm getting the same visual acuity than in real flight. But the stereo depth of perception and 1:1 headtracking make it a must use for me. It's hard for to do the PPI visual acuity math with VR because you need to know focal distance and magnification of lenses, but the Reverb does have double the PPI compared to the 5k+ but I don't know if that's enough to get to 20/20. I think there are VR eyecharts but I can't trust the effective distance with all the variables.

 

I would also recommend the DCS 3dmigoto mod for Pimax users and label users. It allows you to move the NVG circles to a usable location and size them down to realistic levels (or not). If you are using labels, it masks them with the cockpit so you for both realism/reading the cockpit.

 

I would prefer the Smart Scaling feature that one of the other sims has and even DCS used to have over labels. But modified dots are what I've settled for now.

 

[Gunnars Driver]

 

Maybe that's the difference between the 5k+ and the Reverb. Just saying, all of my VR experience (5k+, Rift CV1 and S) has never made me feel like I'm getting the same visual acuity than in real flight. ith the cockpit so you for both realism/reading the cockpit.

 

No, the visual acuity isnt on long ways as full 20/20 Eyes, not yet and not for long I guess.

 

But that isnt the same as seeing other aircrafts on shorter distance, it is depending on how DCS draws a aircraft.

Also, in real life you have (should have) 20/20 eyes and then you can see more of the aircrafts shape and possibly ident the type further than in DCS.

 

With the Reverb at least its mostly possible to detect another aircraft furter away than in real life said from my experience as airforce pilot, 30 years/6K hours.

[Edit] I have an example from todays maintanence test flight I did. After leaving the control zone we got flight i formation from the tower about a small civilian aircraft( Cessna or other 90knots bug smasher) same altitude and we got it related to two places on ground it was training around. Distance on the moving map was 5Nm to the closest place and 10Nm to the furthest place.

we vouldnt see this aircraft, despite two pilots with 20/20 vision and a sparkling sun with very clear winter weather. We tried to descend to low level to get it in sight but no joy. We didnt need to see it but had the opportunity to try to, for the purpose of this issue.[End edit].

 

I know, with first gennVR(oculus rift for example) it was hard to detect but due to low resolution.

With the Reverbs, its way better.

 

One problem I see in this VR section of the forum is that people believe you can see another fighter at 20 or 30 miles in real life and then the complaints is about VR being bad.

I think maybe the reference is to 2D DCS and maybe DCS overdo the visual range on a flat screen(havent really played it in 2D).

Another thing is people dont know how hard it is to detect other aircrafts far away.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Gunnars Driver

[Snake122]

 

No, the visual acuity isnt on long ways as full 20/20 Eyes, not yet and not for long I guess.

 

But that isnt the same as seeing other aircrafts on shorter distance, it is depending on how DCS draws a aircraft.

Also, in real life you have (should have) 20/20 eyes and then you can see more of the aircrafts shape and possibly ident the type further than in DCS.

Yes definitely agreed, it's the details that you can't make out with pixelated blobs. I was watching a Cessna in the pattern the other day just under 1nm and the level of detail is nowhere what you get. That's what I'm trying to replicate, not the detection ranges.

 

With the Reverb at least its mostly possible to detect another aircraft furter away than in real life said from my experience as airforce pilot, 30 years/6K hours.

[Edit] I have an example from todays maintanence test flight I did. After leaving the control zone we got flight i formation from the tower about a small civilian aircraft( Cessna or other 90knots bug smasher) same altitude and we got it related to two places on ground it was training around. Distance on the moving map was 5Nm to the closest place and 10Nm to the furthest place.

we vouldnt see this aircraft, despite two pilots with 20/20 vision and a sparkling sun with very clear winter weather. We tried to descend to low level to get it in sight but no joy. We didnt need to see it but had the opportunity to try to, for the purpose of this issue.[End edit].

Getting the visual contact is always the hardest but then sometimes is the padlock too. Sometime you should come fly one of those bug smashers, their more fun than you think :lol:. Agreed though that long range air traffic is much further than real life. But it's the middle/close range size details plus ground vehicles that seem to be lacking. But it again it could be my low altitude experience bias on the ground vehicles.

 

I know, with first gennVR(oculus rift for example) it was hard to detect but due to low resolution.

With the Reverbs, its way better.

Agreed still with PiMax and Rift S over CV1. But Reverb should still have the edge in acuity.

 

One problem I see in this VR section of the forum is that people believe you can see another fighter at 20 or 30 miles in real life and then the complaints is about VR being bad.

I think maybe the reference is to 2D DCS and maybe DCS overdo the visual range on a flat screen(havent really played it in 2D).

Another thing is people dont know how hard it is to detect other aircrafts far away.

Yes long range visual range is exaggerated. It's middle ranges that my dot labels have played with and actually removed the longest range ones. You can still sometimes pickup the non-label dot and have the labels tweaked have really actually shown me that. I'll look inside a TD box and see the few pixel plane and then realize that my dot labels are not on it and then see something over 10nm in the range and know that the standard effect is too big. All of these dot label mods are under 8nm and most of the effects are around 3nm where your 20/20 acuity would be starting to get better details that you can't in VR.

 

 

[Gunnars Driver]

Yes definitely agreed, it's the details that you can't make out with pixelated blobs.

 

Agreed still with PiMax and Rift S over CV1. But Reverb should still have the edge in acuity.

 

Yes, we have a long way until the VR systems reach the retina resolution.

just got the 8KX the other day so I cannot really say for sure but it looks like 8KX has more fill density in each pixel making it more clear than Reverb G1(have it too).

 

 

 

Getting the visual contact is always the hardest

 

Yes, first eye contact can be really tricky and there I think a lot of users domt really understand the real situation. Also, training helps a lot with this ( in real life, not 100% transfereble to DCS/VR) and I guess the most DCS dont have that training.

 

QUOTE=Snake122;n7117632]

Sometime you should come fly one of those bug smashers, their more fun than you think :lol:.

 

I did fly fixed wing and I also have some civilian time, among these also 90kt Bug smashers :-)

Yes, it can be really fun and in many cases its more about real flying than with bigger aircrafts.

 

(no pun intended, I just find the expression so fun I had to use it. I know it sometimes used to bully others, but please dont take it that way. I have the greatest respect for everyone flying, and also for the ones doing DCS only).

 

 

[moespeeds]

I've got an 8KX sitting in the box here, been waiting to get my hands on a 3090. I should pull it out and just see what it can do with my 1080ti.

[Gunnars Driver]

I've got an 8KX sitting in the box here, been waiting to get my hands on a 3090. I should pull it out and just see what it can do with my 1080ti.

 

I did a few tests with my 2080ti together with the 8KX, but as my 3090 arrived only a few days after the 8KX, I didnt tune anything.

The 3090 is fine even with some high settings in normal FOV but the 2080ti do struggle.

It would probably had been possible to get it to run ok with lower settings.

 

I guess a 1080ti would have a hard job but with low settings and not widest FOV it might work ok.

[darkman222]

Glad to hear the 3090 seems to be a game changer. Whats your settings? Do you run it with 100% steam SSS setting, which should be the same as the native 8KX resolution. Can you let us know what exact resolution steamVR is showing? Does it run a standard mission, free flight of the SU 25, with 75 fps @ 75 Hz without stutters? Really curious about what we can get with a 8KX and a 3090.

[Snake122]

Glad to hear the 3090 seems to be a game changer. Whats your settings? Do you run it with 100% steam SSS setting, which should be the same as the native 8KX resolution. Can you let us know what exact resolution steamVR is showing? Does it run a standard mission, free flight of the SU 25, with 75 fps @ 75 Hz without stutters? Really curious about what we can get with a 8KX and a 3090.

 

I know it is generally the go to baseline, but I wouldn't recommend the Su-25T free flight mission necessarily. There is something weird going on there with my 3090. I saw no improvement in that mission going from 1080Ti to 3090 even though in other non-CPU bound missions I saw an about 40% improvement.

[Gunnars Driver]

Glad to hear the 3090 seems to be a game changer. Whats your settings? Do you run it with 100% steam SSS setting, which should be the same as the native 8KX resolution. Can you let us know what exact resolution steamVR is showing? Does it run a standard mission, free flight of the SU 25, with 75 fps @ 75 Hz without stutters? Really curious about what we can get with a 8KX and a 3090.

 

As I just got the 8KX and the 3090 I didnt change settings in DCS. I had the highest possible for buttersmooth gaming with the reverb, just changed the SS to 100%.

It will be possible to lower the DCS settings if needed to not get into trouble. I still havent git the lighthouses so gaming is a bit ockward with only 3DOF.

Ill be back with my settings, and maybe a movie.

I wont have the time to fine tune yet( the idea with getting the 3090 is to be able to keep as high settings as possible so I dont need to use [LOW] on all settings.

 

Further, its so little difference between large FOV and 150 degree Normal FOV that I think Ill use normal 150 degree.

 

 

 

 

[Gunnars Driver]

This is the fpsvr values for a short flight in kaukasus. F/18, my computer is the serverfor the mission, about 15 AI ground units, and about 5 other AI aircrafts.

SteamVR set to 100%, resolution according to SteamVR = 3772x3160 per eye(3792x3160 according to fpsvr, se below .

Pimax 8KX in Normal FOV(150 degree), 75Hz

Smart smoothing in Pitool = OFF to be able to se what fps the computer is able of.

 

75Hz and using smarth smoothing( reprojection/ASW) gives headroom for 26.6ms frame time and still keeping 37.5fps (=75fps smart smoothed).

 

 

fpsVR Report:

App: DCS HMD: Pimax Vision 8K X (75.000 Hz, IPD 65.5)

GPU: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 (27.21.14.5709) CPU: Intel® Core i9-9900KS CPU @ 4.00GHz

Delivered fps: 44.62 Duration: 4.7min.

GPU Frametimes:

Median: 16.2 ms

99th percentile: 21.6 ms

99.9th percentile: >30 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 8.5%

CPU frametime:

Median: 9.8 ms

99th percentile: 14.7 ms

99.9th percentile: >30 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 98.5%

Max. SteamVR SS: 100%

Render resolution per eye: 3792x3160(by SteamVR settings, Max.) (HMD driver recommended: 3790x3160)

 

 

[Gunnars Driver]

I made a simple missions, just Kaukasus and my F-18, to se the graphic perfomance without any other loads on cpu or gpu.

Same settings,

fpsVR Report:

App: DCS HMD: Pimax Vision 8K X (75.000 Hz, IPD 65.5)

GPU: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 (27.21.14.5709) CPU: Intel® Core i9-9900KS CPU @ 4.00GHz

Delivered fps: 46.99 Duration: 5.6min.

GPU Frametimes:

Median: 15.3 ms

99th percentile: 20.1 ms

99.9th percentile: 21.4 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 11.1%

CPU frametime:

Median: 9.1 ms

99th percentile: 11.4 ms

99.9th percentile: 21.1 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 99.6%

Max. SteamVR SS: 100%

Render resolution per eye: 3792x3160(by SteamVR settings, Max.) (HMD driver recommended: 3790x3160)

 

CPU is not the limit at all, and the GPU doesnt limit for the goal to keep 37.5fps. Even the GPU 99.9 percentile is 20% lower than needed to keep 37.5(75fps with motionsmoothing).

 

 

 

 

[Snake122]

This is the fpsvr values for a short flight in kaukasus. F/18, my computer is the host for the mission, about 15 AI ground units, and about 5 other AI aircrafts.

SteamVR set to 100%, resolution according to SteamVR = 3772x3160 per eye(3792x3160 according to fpsvr, se below .

Pimax 8KX in Normal FOV(150 degree), 75Hz

Smart smoothing in Pitool = OFF to be able to se what fps the computer is able of.

 

75Hz and using smarth smoothing( reprojection/ASW) gives headroom for 26.6ms frame time and still keeping 37.5fps (=75fps smart smoothed).

 

 

 

 

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[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"DCS settings","data-attachmentid":7128550}[/ATTACH]

 

Thanks for that! I can do the same on my system with the 5k+ and 3090 if people want if the mission is shared with me.

 

As to the the 75hz with Smart Smoothing, I had a similar plan with 5k+ 72hz and really cranking up the PD/SS and MSAA, but I found that the reprojected 36/72 effective fps felt far choppier than even 50-60 fps. Plus the double ghosting of aircraft in BFM with Smart Smoothing is a real immersion killer for me.

 

​​​​​​​Another personal preference is instead of my old standard of normal FOV, I use large FOV with foveated rendering turned on so doesn't have much of a performance hit. That makes my peripheral vision practically filled for the full visuals effect but not rendered as fully in the edges since I'm not going to be actually focusing my eyes there.

[Gunnars Driver]

Another personal preference is instead of my old standard of normal FOV, I use large FOV with foveated rendering turned on so doesn't have much of a performance hit. That makes my peripheral vision practically filled for the full visuals effect but not rendered as fully in the edges since I'm not going to be actually focusing my eyes there.

 

What level of foveated rendering do you use?

I havent tried it yet...

 

Tried a public server( Aerobatic online Kaukasus) togheter with smartsmoothing/reprojectioopn and it actually worked quite nice. Almost completely smooth.

fpsVR Report:

App: DCS HMD: Pimax Vision 8K X (75.000 Hz, IPD 65.5)

GPU: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 (27.21.14.5709) CPU: Intel® Core i9-9900KS CPU @ 4.00GHz

Delivered fps: 37.27 Duration: 9.7min.

GPU Frametimes:

Median: 16.4 ms

99th percentile: 21.5 ms

99.9th percentile: 24.4 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 2.2%

CPU frametime:

Median: 11.8 ms

99th percentile: 16.9 ms

99.9th percentile: 24.1 ms

frametime <13.3ms(vsync): 89.7%

Max. SteamVR SS: 100%

Render resolution per eye: 3792x3160(by SteamVR settings, Max.) (HMD driver recommended: 3790x3160)

 

[darkman222]

I just realized that I had much higher settings for my Pimax 5k plus than I had in mind. I was close to an oversampled resolution of factor 1,5. Which is considering the 5K native resolution of 2560 horizontal lines resulting in a resolution of 3840 lines. So I needed so much more pixels to make a soft image. How is it with the 8kx? Does the image look clear running it with its native resolution? Or do you still need to run a higher resolution to get a smooth and not jagged image out if it?

[Snake122]

I just realized that I had much higher settings for my Pimax 5k plus than I had in mind. I was close to an oversampled resolution of factor 1,5. Which is considering the 5K native resolution of 2560 horizontal lines resulting in a resolution of 3840 lines. So I needed so much more pixels to make a soft image. How is it with the 8kx? Does the image look clear running it with its native resolution? Or do you still need to run a higher resolution to get a smooth and not jagged image out if it?

 

The current SteamVR 100% 5K+ large FOV resolution is 3412x2104 so a jump to an 8K X isn't that big and is now on my wishlist. Apparently they set it that high to cut down on distortion with the 5k+ and the 8K X is clear at native without upscaling according to some reports, but would love to hear Gunnars Driver's and others opinions here.

[Gunnars Driver]

 

The current SteamVR 100% 5K+ large FOV resolution is 3412x2104 so a jump to an 8K X isn't that big and is now on my wishlist. Apparently they set it that high to cut down on distortion with the 5k+ and the 8K X is clear at native without upscaling according to some reports, but would love to hear Gunnars Driver's and others opinions here.

 

100% reported in steamVR is quite high resolution, dont remember but can check it up.

With pitool supersampling set at 1.0 its not as sharp as my reverb at 150%. I earlier forgot that I was comparing to the reverb at 150% and I havent run the reverbs at 100% exept when testing almost one year ago so I need to check it up.

I have a feeling that reverb still is slightly sharper but the downtuning to 100% will even out part of the difference I have seen. Have to get back on this.

 

I think the 8KX has very much better resulotion and sharpness than the frist gen VR and for the cockpit most text is possible to see without leaning forward, but not everything.

 

 

[moespeeds]

Just got my 8kx and set it up last night.

 

System

Gigabyte RTX 3090

I9 9900 KS 5.0

32g RAM

PiTool 1.0, Steam 100% Pixel Density 1.4, FOV normal

 

My usual test is to takeoff at AlDahfra and fly out over the city to the NW (I don't pay much attention to frame rates, I worry more about how it feels.)

 

The SDE is mostly gone, but still there is you look for it. I'd put the clarity up there with the HP Reverb I have (last year's version), with a much greater FOV. I also have a 5K, and I'll say it's a big improvement both in FOV, SDE, and clarity. I still have lots of tweaking to do but my initial impression was good.

 

The CPU is now my bottleneck, with frame times pushing 30ms with the above settings. I have to play with MSAA and all that, I took 3 months off of DCS and see there are a lot more settings there.

 

Fit is a little strange, as I can't get the rear pad to set low on my head, because the hinge doesn't allow enough rotation. With some playing around I got a decent fit with my void headset, but I'm sure some aftermarket solutions will appear so I'm not sweating that.

 

Now the bad stuff:

I have the "snowy pixels" right out of the box. It's very minor, but I'm sure will continue to get worse. Went through 3 cables on my 5k in a little over a year, so I know the drill.

I also have scratches on both my lenses. I need to test more, but I cannot see them while I'm playing. If they appear, it will be during night flying so I'll test that tonight. I emailed Pimax, and they offered me a $50 coupon. Yeah right. I'm either going to live with it, or send the whole thing back. Video of the scratches here:

 

Would it be beneficial for us to start a separate 8KX thread?

 

Moe Colontonio

Looking for an active, US based AV8 Squadron? www.vvma-231.com

[Gunnars Driver]

Just got my 8kx and set it up last night.

 

Gigabyte RTX 3090

I9 9900 KS 5.0

32g RAM

PiTool 1.0, Steam 100% Pixel Density 1.4, FOV normal

 

The CPU is now my bottleneck, with frame times pushing 30ms with the above settings. I have to play with MSAA and all that, I took 3 months off of DCS and see there are a lot more settings there.

 

I have about the same system, 9900KS@5.2 32Gb@3200, asus strix 3090 OC.

 

I never sen the CPU bottleneck. In fact, when using my 8KX I get quite low frame times on the CPU and the GPU really get to work hard.

I dont remember the exakt values but I think I often have GPU times three times higher than the CPU. Say, GPU 25 and CPU 6 to 8 ms,

 

I would say that you should not use PD in dcs. It use more cpu power and use pitool ss or steamvr SS instead, as these use tge GPU for the same thing.

 

I havent got my base stations yet so I dont use the 8KX that much yet.

I see in STEAMVR that the default settings in resolution per eye is very high with the 8KX.

 

How do you know that it is the CPU that is the bottleneck? Do you use fpsvr ?

 

For the 8KX, I dont se much mura. Doesnt notice it.

No other quality problems found yet for me.

 

 

[moespeeds]

FPS VR for CPU/GPU times. I'll give the Pimax upscaling a try, I never messed with it.

[Gunnars Driver]

FPS VR for CPU/GPU times. I'll give the Pimax upscaling a try, I never messed with it.

 

I think some say StramVR might be less demanding than Pimax.

 

Also, I will initially try to use low supersampling to keep the load low.

 

 

[Gunnars Driver]

I ordered the 8KX bundle 1october and the pimax homesite said ”delivery in 7 working days”.

The 8KX was sent within the 7 Working days but they still havent sent the base stations and controllers. Soon two months and I can not really enjoy the 8KX without tracking.

starting to be a bit pissed on Pimax for this.

[trigen]

Some quick info on the 8k X

 

I run mine on a 1080TI + i7700k perfectly fine 75hz in most racing sims and i run 37 motion smooth for DCS. I can run large or small fov but i prefer small with a bit more SS 2500 vs 3000 res. My 1080TI is slightly lacking there but a 3080 normal or TI version will be more than good enough for me. DCS is cpu limited anyways

 

To get a reasonably clear hud and instruments you want to have a IPD of minimum 65. preferably 66 as with the small sweet spot and canted lenses (Technically you are a bit outside the sweet spot with canted lenses but it does not work with such a small sweet spot but works great for the Index) reporting minimum IPD at 60ish but the center sweet spot actually being 65-66 it is physically impossible to be in the proper sweet spot if you are 64 or 63.5 like me. If you look to the sides more like in a racing or normal game where you dont really need to read things up close it is for the most part fine but if you wish to read instruments and hud you wont get a properly sharp view as you need to look like this \ / since the sweet spot is a fair bit away from your actual IPD. So you either need to extreme mod IPD (made it nice and sharp) it like me or live with a fuzzy center view and more clear when looking a bit to the sides but only with one eye sharp.

 

Image quality is of course much better than the 5k+ at lower SS but you get the jaggies. Sadly the small sweet spot also force you to go higher SS to clear up some of the fuzzy view.

 

Upscaling seems a a bit pointless for performance the moment and feels like its more there to give you the option for higher refresh rates which i think is great.

 

In short its a great HMD that i think is quite future proof but sadly with a very big shortcoming and that's the lenses and sweet spot that really ruins the experience for a lot of people when they cant get a sharp view in both eyes due to the canted lens and somewhat misleading (they never mention anything about being due to canting or any other documentation) numbers. If they make replacement lenses with a better sweet spot and or increase the adjustment range this will be a killer HMD.