Gunzo tactics: SOme stuff I just dont understand.

[Pilotasso]

The funniest thing, if in BS AMRAAM's start to work in a reasonable measure (i.e. not able to dodge unless you go defensive) is bound to cause mass protests of people who are not used to fly more realistic tactics. Thats why I insist to educate yourselves on those, in order not to get dependend of unrealistic ones.

 

I discovered yesterday that one of the things that shortens the AMRAAM's range is not the missile itself but how difficult it is to bring the F-15 high enough to achieve that range. I have been hearing alot of RL F-16 training sorties lately and found out that an F-16AM can get to 45000 feet easier than LOMAC's F-15 can. I shot somebody yesterday about 30 miles away from that altitude. But I had to keep afterburning the whole way up, and even while cruising leveled.

 

F-16's fly routinely at that altitude and I read everywhere that F-15's do so even higher. And perhaps Flankers as well.

[GGTharos]

F-15C's have those variable inlets to help them get more power at those altitudes. N/A LOMAC, or stores have too much drag or both.

[Kula66]

I've always been told that in a turning speed you will get always slower and slower but any extra speed you get over him is going to save your life. However while flying online I get a sensation the oposite is true. The slower you are the tighter you you turn.

 

Agreed Pilot, even in the 15 which I fly all the time you end up flaps out and slow ... I've tried doing the 'keep it at 350kts' thing it doesn't really work. Replaying the tracks and watching the turn rate degs/sec seems to confirm this ... in LO slow is best.

 

Interesting vdeo someone posted recently of ACM F-18 v 16 ... that seemed to be just slow turning and falling until you run out of sky, so perhaps its like that in RL too!

[Pilotasso]

IRL you have no other choice but to slow down but if you have more speed than the opposition does, that will give you an edge. In LOMAC peoble decelerate on purpose.

That hover at the top of the loops those Su-27's do is trancendant to me because it works almost everytime to force me overshoot (they hang above my pit and theres nothing I can do to put my nose into him untill he slips behind me), and wats best about it, is that he can still maneuver into me when I was suposed to have more aerodynamic authority than he should.

 

I suspect yanking the rudder sideways causes something to hapen to the flight model because those extraordinary manuvers hapen with the nose indicating rapid rudder imputs. Its realy odd.

[RvEFoxteR]

That's because you don't understand the art of BVR. ;)

Not that LO really helps.

I don't see how big you need to be to pull the trigger on the gun either anyway ;)

 

Believe me I can fairly fly BVR as well, I just prefer dogfighting thats all. For pulling the trigger I agree, but thats the last thing you will do in a dogfight isnt it?...first you need to maneuver your plane to get it in a good shooting position, and that is ART.

[RvEPaploo]

ART :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Nah. Art is painting, and that's getting close to being measured.

WVR/Dogfighting is trainable, and requires no innate talent. Not Art ;)

[Pilotasso]

Just found out something while watching some tracks of my problematic engagements. Aparently using rudder and engine differential throttle bleeds less energy and makes turns faster than roll and pitch the usual way...is this correctly modeled?

 

I mean I use both engines max throttle and pitch to turn and he cuts on one of the engines (the 1 inside the turn) and yaws...he bleeds less speed and turns faster... o.O how can my method of turning at slow speeds bleed more airpeed at full power than him with one engine reduced?

[GGTharos]

At slow speed, you can roll very effectively with rudder. Normally the way to roll if you want to roll FAST is to unload (let og of the stick, let G settle) and then roll hard, THEN pull the stick. No roll+haul.

 

And, how do you know he's cutting throttle on one of the engines? Incidentally at slow speeds this produces quite a yawing moment, and is in fact used when dogfighting by F-14's. He might not be bleeding a lot of speed because the drag induced by this maneuver may in fact be smaller, but I can't be sure of that.

 

If he does this, be in a position to either shoot him or to extend. That's your two options, period. If he starts doing things like that, get high (and by high I mean such that you won't overshoot him and you can pull the nose right back down onto him, not high as in 12000m :P )

[RvETito]

Well Pilotasso... That sounds familiar. I also have the same observations. I don't know... That doesn't make much sense, how come using less thrust(moreover asymetric) would improve the turn rate? I start guns only fights with 40% fuel(Su-27) and sometimes I feel like my oponent is twice lighter then me. I usualy ask him about the fuel, most people say about the same quantity as mine. There's no way I could be sure about this and I'm quiet suspicious especialy when some people are leaving for landing right after the first fight...

[A.S]

;-)

 

U can save the mission to check his payload after .

 

For the question, why in 3/9 neutral position in a sustain turn the same plane with same fuel "turns" better than the other....now this is where dogfightskill begins. :music_whistling:

 

But it has nothing to do with any gamespecific "TRICKS" like one engine less or somethin ( personaly i wouldnt risks to loose the ability to regain power if needed )

 

It is like dancing with a girl, sometimes u hold her soft sometimes u press her hard..but always looking in her eyes.... ok enuf secrets :smilewink:

[Pilotasso]

At slow speed, you can roll very effectively with rudder. Normally the way to roll if you want to roll FAST is to unload (let og of the stick, let G settle) and then roll hard, THEN pull the stick. No roll+haul.

 

I was talking about pitch tunring VS differential thrust+ rudder turn. Maybe I failed to be clear sorry.

 

And, how do you know he's cutting throttle on one of the engines?

 

Because in ACMI (cant suply it at my oponents request) clearly shows hes not nearly as banked as I am and his nose is notciably off flight path pink trail doing the turn with the wings very close to the plane of turn.

 

Incidentally at slow speeds this produces quite a yawing moment, and is in fact used when dogfighting by F-14's. He might not be bleeding a lot of speed because the drag induced by this maneuver may in fact be smaller, but I can't be sure of that.

 

Well thats my question is this modeled right?

 

If he does this, be in a position to either shoot him or to extend. That's your two options, period.

 

I cant, we were slow and climbing, I was trying to avoid droping my nose so we couldnt dive into my 6. If I extend all I would achieve with that would be giving him my 6 right away.

 

Check the pics:

 

1) I did everything right and closing on his 6 at slow speeds (both of us)...I should be ok, right?

2)WRONG!!! later in the fight he yaws and gains my 6 again! Check how far hes yawing (angle alpha)

[RvEPaploo]

ART AS

 

haros come Hl and let do some dogfight you ll feel what ART required, i met so much peep in flying and some are working a lot but miss this lil stuff, who will give the pleasure or the magic in the air lol

waiting you HL

my cs is PaP huk uk

and like a friend of me said .... LET S DANCE

[Pilotasso]

^^^^LOL GG your SOOOO donne! :D

 

When you had enough then I'de like to have a piece of you as well :P

 

:lol:

 

 

Speaking of bites... LMAO watched this movie on TV, I don think I laughed so hard since friday 13 horror movies.

[RvETito]

I remember you guys from =RvE= used to have a gunzo server in HL some months ago. It was great fun indeed especialy dogfights over the Caucausus mountains. Haven't seen your server online for a long time.

[GGTharos]

My cure to your 'art' is my AMRAAMs ;)

 

ART AS

 

haros come Hl and let do some dogfight you ll feel what ART required, i met so much peep in flying and some are working a lot but miss this lil stuff, who will give the pleasure or the magic in the air lol

waiting you HL

my cs is PaP huk uk

and like a friend of me said .... LET S DANCE

[GGTharos]

I was talking about pitch tunring VS differential thrust+ rudder turn. Maybe I failed to be clear sorry.

 

 

 

Because in ACMI (cant suply it at my oponents request) clearly shows hes not nearly as banked as I am and his nose is notciably off flight path pink trail doing the turn with the wings very close to the plane of turn.

 

IIRC roll might not be correctly recorded in ACMI. I'm not sure it's even exported.

 

Well thats my question is this modeled right?

I don't know.

 

 

I cant, we were slow and climbing, I was trying to avoid droping my nose so we couldnt dive into my 6. If I extend all I would achieve with that would be giving him my 6 right away.

If you extend you can bring it back to a neutral (head on) pass

 

Check the pics:

 

1) I did everything right and closing on his 6 at slow speeds (both of us)...I should be ok, right?

2)WRONG!!! later in the fight he yaws and gains my 6 again! Check how far hes yawing (angle alpha)

 

Rudder is ultra-nasty in LO, IIRC. Practice using it.

[RvEPaploo]

lol GG.

ok i m up for long fishing :)

HL right now

and if u come close enough pls let paint together.

[GGTharos]

Ok, you go to HL, and prove uh ... what? :D

 

I'm not able to come to HL for quite a few hours still :D

[RvEPaploo]

nothing to prove GG, wanna just say, it is no brain and no heart in amraam sensor, dat is where the problem is :)

[GGTharos]

Ah, but that's billed as an advantage, not a problem - in RL. In LO AMRAAM is probably not quite up to RL standard ;)

 

For what it's worth I agree with you that an AMRAAM is exciting only for the guy on the receiving side.

[TucksonSonny]

Not that I am good at gun-turn-fights (I am a BVR guy)

Anyway King of turn-fight must be Mig-29A right or not? F-16A comes close I think.

My point is in a close gun/turn/fight you don’t want to be a big boar like an F-15C/Su-27.

[RvETito]

That's not the case in LO. The Su-27/33 is much better in guns-only in the sim.

[GGTharos]

Not that I am good at gun-turn-fights (I am a BVR guy)

Anyway King of turn-fight must be Mig-29A right or not? F-16A comes close I think.

 

They're better in different regimes, AFAIK - but not kings.

 

My point is in a close gun/turn/fight you don’t want to be a big boar like an F-15C/Su-27.

In general an F-15 wants to kill things as far away from it as possible ... but it doesn't mean that dogfighting is out of the question, or that you will lose just because you're in an F-15.

 

Remember in a war it won't be 1v1, and now many things aside from your ability to turn and burn enter into the equation. In any case, the F-15 is an energy fighter, not a turn fighter (but that's not to say it's a slouch in turning - just not on par with the light fighters)

[nscode]

Remember in a war it won't be 1v1

 

in a war,

what ever will be will be

 

but yes, it's not the most likely situation.