Gunzo tactics: SOme stuff I just dont understand.

[Pilotasso]

I've always been told that in a turning speed you will get always slower and slower but any extra speed you get over him is going to save your life. However while flying online I get a sensation the oposite is true. The slower you are the tighter you you turn. IF you fly aginst someone who knows how to use the speed brake for this effect playing the energy game it will imply wider turns, he will get to your 6. you might think that if you evade his initial shots you will be able to go vertical and shoot him from above like a clay pigeom. And this is the funny part, he doesnt have to follow. If he flies horizontaly for long enough by the time I pull back to him hes already right there catching up on me and pulling his brakes to start the whole thing all over again.

 

Do we need better slow speed modeling or is it just me that I got it wrong all these years?

[GGTharos]

No, you just got it plain wrong period. Go up and drop INTO his circle, don't turn into it - he can't go up like you can, so go up, and pull right INTO his circle. Don't try to do co-planar turns when you have energy. You'll have to settle for B&Z snapshots there, but you're doing far better than he is, hanging down there with no energy and no way to get out of your way.

 

Unless you're only a touch faster than he is ... then you screwed up and he'll fix all your worries for you in no time.

[Pilotasso]

No, you just got it plain wrong period. Go up and drop INTO his circle, don't turn into it - he can't go up like you can, so go up, and pull right INTO his circle. Don't try to do co-planar turns when you have energy. You'll have to settle for B&Z snapshots there, but you're doing far better than he is, hanging down there with no energy and no way to get out of your way.

 

Unless you're only a touch faster than he is ... then you screwed up and he'll fix all your worries for you in no time.

 

Donne that a thousand times but the lower part of that turn has screwed me over and over because gravity is oposite to my turn. Hes flying slower than me when I arrive at the bottom hes right back again shooting.

 

"he cant go up like I can"? Seen just minutes ago more than a guy pull vertical just out of minimum speed. The best part is when hes at the top of the loop he slows down to a standstill inverted and hovers there wayting me to overshoot over my canopy, and then he rolls over and hes back there again.

[GGTharos]

So do something to spoil his shot. Or alternatively, don't miss ;)

 

But if you come down on his beam or close to, he likely won't have the time to turn onto you for a snapshot when you come out the other side (low speed=turn rate suffers). This of course might not be practical, but these slicing attacks are 'it'.

[veit]

No, you just got it plain wrong period. Go up and drop INTO his circle

 

By that do you mean executing a high yoyo maneuver? Just curious, I'm not very experienced in dogfighting.

[Pilotasso]

yo-yo works only if he doesnt slow down to a crawl. If he does, by the time you arrive at the bottom hes about to get our 6 again.

[GGTharos]

Basically yes, but you might have far too much speed to do it exactly right ... when executing a high yo-yo you are theoretically never out of the guy's circle, where in the case that Pilotasso is describing you probably will be - so if you're going to overshoot his circle, do it in such a way that he cannot:

 

Go scissors on you

Point the gun at you

 

So fly up and snap back down, point right into his circle and give him a good snapshot. Repeat as necessary. Not a great tactic, you can probably do much better.

[GGTharos]

Pilotasso, if he's at a crawl, take a little more time, get a little higher, and come down on the guy and gun him down. He should be practically helpless, and you should have all the +'s so long as YOU are at corner (400kts for the F-15)

[Pilotasso]

The hover at the top of the loop just escapes my comprehension. When I see it I already know I've lost. :D The only hope to me is never to slow down to that point.

[Pilotasso]

Pilotasso, if he's at a crawl, take a little more time, get a little higher, and come down on the guy and gun him down. He should be practically helpless, and you should have all the +'s so long as YOU are at corner (400kts for the F-15)

 

 

It works on some people but others seem to have mastered it to a point that it wont work.

 

Some people are smart enough not to follow when in kinetic disavantage and start burning in horizontal. When I drop the nose to catch him down low he starts to climb and catches me with the speed he gained in the mean time. Then with my nose pointed down and he coming up, he brakes and catches my 6 while I'm still trying to level the nose up below him.

 

Then Im confronted with 2 choices

1) start the climb again as I have more speed

2) or slow down to his game.

 

The first otpion results in an endless fight, untill he eventualy drags me to the second option.

[RvETito]

Pilotasso, which plane have you flown in this engagements? And your opponent?

[Pilotasso]

Both on Su-27, in the F-15 it is more important to keep your corner speed but in the flanker flying slower always allows you to get his 6. When you do, then comes the easiest part: catching up on him.

[RvETito]

I see. Well I'm actualy flying guns only pretty much and mostly on the Su-27 so here are my impressions.

I've come to realise that most people are intentionaly slowing down to 250-300km/h or even slower with flaps extended. This tactic works pretty good against an F-15 or MiG-29. But in Su-27vsSu-27 duel it is more likely to bring both players into head-on shots where they both could get themselves shot down. I'm usualy trying to avoid such outcome since it's quiet unrealistic and pretty stupid IRL. The merge usualy starts with head-on fly-by where I see that most opponents have deployed air-brakes and they go vertical to bleed speed the fastest way possible. I don't use this tactis, I feel better with flaps us and speed above 350km/h. I can always deccelerate quickly pulling some more G's and/or using brake and flaps. But I'm doing this only when I'm sure I'll have the victory. I found that my sustained turn rate is better with flaps and airbrake in. I always prefer be a bit lower that the opponent when flying-by at the merge start. I enter at speed of 680-700km/h and at the end of the first turn, or shallow loop I'm trying to keep my speed about 450-500km/h which still gives me an oppportunity for second harder(again 3D) turn than my opponent is able to since he have already bled his entire energy.

[GGTharos]

It works on some people but others seem to have mastered it to a point that it wont work.

 

Bull. It is you who hasn't mastered things. Speed is life. ;)

 

Some people are smart enough not to follow when in kinetic disavantage and start burning in horizontal.

 

Yeah, ok? it is the correct response. Zoom instead, don't turn with him. Catch him when his turn makes little difference to your aim.

 

When I drop the nose to catch him down low he starts to climb and catches me with the speed he gained in the mean time.

 

Ah. You've gone too far, for too long. You can use simple oblique maneuvers that will prevent him from keeping up with you.

 

Then with my nose pointed down and he coming up, he brakes and catches my 6 while I'm still trying to level the nose up below him.

 

So why didn't you shoot him in the face? Squirt a few rounds in his way and maneuver to confuse him and don't forget to *lead turn* and zoom again when he starts his turn onto your six.

 

Then Im confronted with 2 choices

1) start the climb again as I have more speed

 

Bingo, try again.

 

2) or slow down to his game.

 

The first otpion results in an endless fight, untill he eventualy drags me to the second option.

 

 

*beeep*. Shoot him down already, don't bother slowing down. That's what snapshots are for, and if you keep the right speed you can do it. Remember that altitude = energy. Don't zoom from 2000' to 10000'. Only as much as you need, minimize the time he has to do anything and pull the nose right back onto him. If he's not pointing at you, haul on the stick to bring the nose back down - who cares if you piss all your speed away, you'll get it back in the dive.

[Pilotasso]

So why didn't you shoot him in the face? Squirt a few rounds in his way and maneuver to confuse him and don't forget to *lead turn* and zoom again when he starts his turn onto your six.

 

 

*beeep*. Shoot him down already, don't bother slowing down. That's what snapshots are for, and if you keep the right speed you can do it.

 

Shoot him on the face with 1000 mph aproach speed? o.O

 

Remember that altitude = energy. Don't zoom from 2000' to 10000'. Only as much as you need, minimize the time he has to do anything and pull the nose right back onto him. If he's not pointing at you, haul on the stick to bring the nose back down - who cares if you piss all your speed away, you'll get it back in the dive.

 

I Inderstand this, and will try. I got too used to zomm from under 1000 all the way to 20000 or more, to force him to drop the nose. It was then when I attacked. Naturaly its not as simple as that if he doesnt try to follow you immidiatly. ;)

[Pilotasso]

I see. Well I'm actualy flying guns only pretty much and mostly on the Su-27 so here are my impressions.

I've come to realise that most people are intentionaly slowing down to 250-300km/h or even slower with flaps extended. This tactic works pretty good against an F-15 or MiG-29. But in Su-27vsSu-27 duel it is more likely to bring both players into head-on shots where they both could get themselves shot down. I'm usualy trying to avoid such outcome since it's quiet unrealistic and pretty stupid IRL. The merge usualy starts with head-on fly-by where I see that most opponents have deployed air-brakes and they go vertical to bleed speed the fastest way possible. I don't use this tactis, I feel better with flaps us and speed above 350km/h. I can always deccelerate quickly pulling some more G's and/or using brake and flaps. But I'm doing this only when I'm sure I'll have the victory. I found that my sustained turn rate is better with flaps and airbrake in. I always prefer be a bit lower that the opponent when flying-by at the merge start. I enter at speed of 680-700km/h and at the end of the first turn, or shallow loop I'm trying to keep my speed about 450-500km/h which still gives me an oppportunity for second harder(again 3D) turn than my opponent is able to since he have already bled his entire energy.

 

 

I understand exactly what you mean. Thats how I face my fight and how I make the first pass.

[GGTharos]

Shoot him on the face with 1000 mph aproach speed? o.O

 

Yep. It settles the psychology of the fight. You don't even need to aim too well or hit him, you'll almost get anyone off their game this way, esp. if you manage to land a hit or two, but ... don't sit there aiming at the guy - that's just inviting return fire.

 

 

I Inderstand this, and will try. I got too used to zomm from under 1000 all the way to 20000 or more, to force him to drop the nose. It was then when I attacked. Naturaly its not as simple as that if he doesnt try to follow you immidiatly. ;)

 

No experience fighter pilot will - in a zoom lag pursuit is typically gold ;)

[A.S]

Hmm

 

Well, this is definitly a huge capture.

 

A "dance" in CAC has to do with alot of things like understanding of basics and concepts of geometry, physics, decission, ability to estimate and compare situations .... after that advanced experiences ...and not to forget the "arse-meter".

 

It is a way more complex part of flying then it looks like at the first view and definitly unpossible to describe or "teach" it in words.

 

But at the end of the day Lockon and Falcon ( both lil different in few points of feeling more or less realistic ) are delievering a nice plattform to get involved in this capture and even the fact they are sims, the principals are the same.

 

But one thing i can say here - flying is an art and it takes patience and time. The question is, having the love to walk this way.

 

".... Dont think with ya gun ...."

[KiLLiR37]

Ordnung, Ordnung uber alles!

[RvEFoxteR]

Nice to see people getting interested again in real big boys type of fighting :thumbup:

[RvETito]

Gunzo dogfight will always be the perfect match online- all is up to the pilot. No wonder all tournaments are namely guns only.

[GGTharos]

Nice to see people getting interested again in real big boys type of fighting :thumbup:

 

 

Big boys shoot you down 20nm away. ;)

[RvEFoxteR]

I don't see how "big" you need to be to lock someone and press the trigger:D...shooting a plane down when you can literally see the dirt under his wings, now thats an art.

[rnm2000]

"No better kill than a gun kill" every fighter pilot know that :)

 

=RvE=jr

[GGTharos]

That's because you don't understand the art of BVR. ;)

Not that LO really helps.

I don't see how big you need to be to pull the trigger on the gun either anyway ;)

 

I don't see how "big" you need to be to lock someone and press the trigger:D...shooting a plane down when you can literally see the dirt under his wings, now thats an art.