beginner locating threats - RWR

[animaal]

A general question about tactics with the a-10c...

 

When I see/hear an alert on the RWR, I can tell that there is a particular type of SAM nearby - and the approximate direction of that SAM (Unlike the f16, the A-10c doesn't seem to have a ground radar). Should that alert be enough for a competent A-10c pilot to locate and eliminate the threat? At the moment, I have enough difficulty locating targets even when I know they're beside a waypoint.

 

Or would skilled people just avoid any area where there appears to be a SAM?

 

Thanks.

[razo+r]

depends on which SAM.

 

For me, a SA-10 is something for dedicated SEAD/DEAD flights along with other modern, long range SAM.

 

Something like a SA-8 is a challenge but it should be possible if you use force corelate.

 

SAMs like a SA-3 is for me ok to deal with (hoping they don't have too many missile launchers).

 

It is risky but if you want and if it is possible to do, you can do Wild Weasel to locate the SAM site, allthough you should scan the area with your TGP first.

[Maverick_]

Scanning with the TGP in the general area is your best bet, unless you see a missile launch. If you see the launch its pretty easy to determine a location. Many of the default campaign missions have dedicated dead/sead flights to help you out. Sometimes its not even necessary to eliminate the threat if you just keep good SA stay out of the engagement envelopes

[kylekatarn720]

I dont think this is something a real pilot would do in combat but, you can try this against long range SAM's. When you spot the SAM on your RWR, start turning until its on your 1 or 11 o'clock position. Keep him on one of these positions relative to you until it starts to track you. When it starts to track you, put him on your 3-9 line and wait for him to launch, spot the missile smoke, turn on to him as quick as possible, set SPI somewhere near him using the HUD and start diving as steep as possible. Dogde the missile, slave your TGP to the SPI u just set, create a mark point on that, get out of the dive and fly away from his track range. After that you can just climb high, spot him with the TGP and use a pop-up maneuver to kill him.

 

Edit: that being said, normally you should avoid these things, its usually like charging a spear wall head on with cavalry. Ye you can break the line every once in a while but it mostly ends up with the cavalry looking like a pincushion

Edited September 27, 2017 by kylekatarn720

[VAF [136] Striker]

I've seen other people mention "Force Correlate" on SAM's before but I've personally never used it. AGM-65-D's work perfectly fine on most SAM systems including SA-15 Tors (6.5 miles), SA-19 (6.5 miles) Tunguska's and SA-8 Osa's (6.5 miles). The main problem is finding them. Best practice is to put them on your RWR's 6:00 position and try to get a close heading on them using the reciprocal heading of your HSI. Then when you're safely out of their threat range you can fly back on that heading and start your search. You can also triangulate on them by flying on a radial and then doing another heading indication. You can even use mark points and triangulate on them if you want to get fancy.

 

Careful searching and staying out of their threat range is the only way to deal with them. I'm attaching a document that's been posted before but it shows the ranges of a lot of the systems. Stay away from SA-10's (25 miles), SA-6's (13 miles) and SA-11's (13 miles) unless you learn how to do pop-up attacks from behind hills. If you want to try, put a mark point on them from a distance and then slave your TGP to that mark point and then fly in from behind the terrain and pop up when in range and slew to the radar and then drop back down behind the terrain after launch. You have to be quick though.

 

Also be aware that some systems like Tor's and Tunguska's can shoot down Mavericks, especially if they're linked together in an air defense group. Be prepared to shoot one, count to 3 and shoot another right after. They usually shoot down the first one but the second scores a hit. SA-10's can shoot down Kh-58-MPU's from the Su-25T as well. And the other problem is tiered systems. When we design missions we never just put in a SA-8. It's supported by Shilka's Strella's, ZU-23's and Manpads. So you need to learn to stay out of threat ranges and above IR missiles as well.

Edited September 27, 2017 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Atooyi]

Well as been mentioned there's a really important point, mixed SAMs, if it's only SA-10 it's just flying low poping up at a point releasing some low drags and kaboom, but when it comes with mixed SAMs, it turns complicated, we usually don't fly at that situation without proper SEAD to at least eliminate the long range SAMs as the short other ones are not any problem at all if you know how to handle those mavericks.

by the way one of the worst long range SAMs I've ever met was SA-11 BUK, it just hit me when I was almost touching the ground flying low, unlike the S-300 which simply can't take you down if you're flying so low (same applies for moskva, you can get really close to the ship flying below 10m,then shoot some SEAD missiles at it, with 2-3 su25s shooting at the ship,it's pretty much dead).

 

I myself would also use help of my wingman locating the long range SAMs (as spotting the other ones would be pretty easy using TGP and RWR) is some situations.as my wingman starts tickling the SAM and forcing it to shoot some missiles (and then using some terrain mask or other methods to avoid being shot down) and just following the trail to find it.

 

I know many of these ways may not be the proper way of using a-10 or su25, but when there's no SEAD available and you are forced to get the job done, using proper methods may not always answer. all of those methods me and my wingman use are gained by tests and experiencing. So if you had learned the missile avoidance techniques and you know how to use your weapons, go out and start testing.

[VAF [136] Striker]

Another point is that on a lot of these systems the minimum altitude isn't completely respected so caution is the best approach. I've flown the Ka-50 within a couple miles of an Sa-8 and they keep chucking spears at me and they blow up in front and 50 feet above me while I'm hovering 5 at feet. But I was over the water and they were on the elevated inland slightly. But maneuvering in an A-10C is a lot different that because you can't stay at a specific altitude all the time. There are times you'll be in the envelope and not know it like if you are climbing up the side of a slightly sloping hill. So be careful and try not to get into their bubble.

Edited September 27, 2017 by 75th-VFS-Striker

[Atooyi]

Another point is that on a lot of these systems the minimum altitude isn't completely respected so caution is the best approach. I've flown the Ka-50 within a couple miles of an Sa-8 and they keep chucking spears at me and they blow up in front and 50 feet above me while I'm hovering 5 at feet. But I was over the water and they were on the elevated inland slightly. But maneuvering in an A-10C is a lot different that because you can't stay at a specific altitude all the time. There are times you'll be in the envelope and not know it like if you are climbing up the side of a slightly sloping hill. So be careful and try not to get into their bubble.

Totally agree, some SAMs like 8,15 and 11 are extremely dangerous even at really low altitudes, and surviving the sa-11 missiles near pass is almost impossible due to blast fragmentation.

[WildBillKelsoe]

If you want to locate SAM sites with reasonable precision, you need two lines crossing their position. This can be accomplished via offset markpoint function.

 

 

Basicurry, you fly beaming source on your 3-9 line. create an offset markpoint along that line for say 100 nautical. Then you fly a perpendicular course to the first course you flew in, also beaming the threat, and again, create a markpoint on that bearing extending 100 nautical.

 

Then you have two lines intersecting on TAD. The SAM source should be reasonably accurate in location. The third one you create at the intersection, set as SPI, and scan with SOI. Its reverse pinging like having a sub tracking a ship by sonar twice. First ping marks X, second ping marks Y.

 

Once located, you can either task your wingman to attack it, or do the honors yourself. I send my AI no good wingman after them, as they shoot him, so I can also quickly visually locate them even quicker. He either fires from a good distance, or gets schwhacked.

[baltic_dragon]

Once located, you can either task your wingman to attack it, or do the honors yourself. I send my AI no good wingman after them, as they shoot him, so I can also quickly visually locate them even quicker. He either fires from a good distance, or gets schwhacked.

 

LOL, that is a very realistic approach ;)

Jokes aside, that is a very good way to find a SAM and well written, thanks!

[animaal]

Thanks all, it sounds like it is possible to locate and target a previously unknown SAM threat, but quite common to simply avoid them. Avoiding is probably my best bet :)

 

Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose in reality a sortie should have a defined objective, and any risks outside of that objective would be avoided in real life. And if the objective *is* a SAM, then most likely its location will be known in advance.

 

Thanks again!

[VAF [136] Striker]

Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose in reality a sortie should have a defined objective, and any risks outside of that objective would be avoided in real life. And if the objective *is* a SAM, then most likely its location will be known in advance.

On the first part of your statement, yes and no. Some times you are forced to fly into an area to take out an objective where you know there are long range SAM's and you have no choice. It's just fly low and use the terrain. In other cases you do fly around them.

 

On the second part, yes, you will obviously know where an SA-3 or SA-10 site is because they take time to set up and they're not really all that mobile. But keep in mind that a lot of the Russian systems are extremely mobile. Tor's, Tunguska's, Shilka's and Strella's can be moved and set up fairly quickly. It's a very fluid environment so you have to know how to defeat some of these threats.

[WildBillKelsoe]

LOL, that is a very realistic approach ;)

Jokes aside, that is a very good way to find a SAM and well written, thanks!

 

thanks, but its not me who invented it

 

[flyco]

The group that I fly with have had quite good success in taking out SAM-6s, and SAM-3s.

 

The technique we use is to approach directly at around 20k. Ensure you have the launcher locked into your TGP. When you see the launch (usually around 12-8 nm), turn hard left or right through 90 degrees, and push out chaff, as soon as you start the turn. When the HSI marker shows that the launcher is at 90, level your wings and look for the missile, in your 9 or 3 o’clock position. If it is still coming directly at, or slightly ahead of, you push out more chaff - if it is still coming for you after that, roll inverted, pull to the vertical and put out more chaff. At a launch range of 10n.m, you have the best part of 30 secs to break the lock.

 

Take it in turns to do this, and the fourth guy (SAM-6) or fifth guy (SAM-3), should be able to run all the way in and launch a Maverick. It is worth locking up the Mav for all runs, you might just get close enough to launch.

 

For an average SAM, this is usually successful, the better ones are a bit more tricky, usually by delaying the launch, although this does increase the chance of getting in an early Mav launch.

 

If you are a flight of 4, and reasonably co-ordinated, you can space out at around 30sec intervals or approach from different directions. However, in that case you do need to be able to identify who the missile is launched at - hence the need for a TGP lock on the run-in.

 

It sounds a bit ‘hairy’ but it does work, and can be very satisfying!

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Relative to SAMS, RWR, ECM, is there any real difference between the ALQ-131 and ALQ-184 Pods when it come to DCS? Does it really matter which one to load and if so, When, Why, Where?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Relative to SAMS, RWR, ECM, is there any real difference between the ALQ-131 and ALQ-184 Pods when it come to DCS? Does it really matter which one to load and if so, When, Why, Where?

 

the way I understand EW is that its purpose is to deny the radar accurate ranging information. The missile will still track you because the radar has locked on to you, because you were flying very contrasted to the background, or you were a blip getting bigger and reflecting more rays relative to the flashlight (radar). When a missile is not budging, your EW suite is useless. Because the radar has burned through your bluff. Because you were close.

 

If you read the hunter killers (Dan Hampton), you would know they had dedicated panels to discern signals and their level of an emitter. The launching platform would usually loft the missile to gain maximum range while also making themselves more vulnerable in pulling up.

 

WRT your question, I dont think ther is any difference. Caveat: I am not a pilot, nor ever been involved with the military service. Its my personal opinion. I could be wrong.