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A-10 any good for dogfight?


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Once the A-10 and P-51 merge, the A-10 cannot (other than by fully disengaging in order to setup a new HO) get the P-51 anywhere near its front 90 degrees, much less in the Sidewinder lock cone.

 

Hey, Echo38 -- I was able to get the P-51D in my front 90 degree field of view in a two-circle fight, however by the time I got lock I was too close to engage with missiles, and about 15 to 20 degrees away from a guns solution.

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vs AI ? Makes no sense. Play 10 rounds in PvP against friend with similar skills, 5 rounds per plane then turn. And guns only of course. The plane with best dogfighting capabilities would have more than 7 victories...below, we cannot say who's the best, or get any conclusion (can be due to skills difference)


Edited by galevsky06
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Don't be ridiculous. I never said that speed was unimportant, or less important than maneuverability. Speed is life. But maneuverability, not speed, is what makes a kill during a dogfight. This is why fighter designers, even while they usually prioritize speed, still place great emphasis on maneuverability.

 

Naeh.... SR-71 is best fighter ever, it has all the speed to live for next day!

 

/s

 

Seriously, this is often the crucial point that comes visible example in the "Cobra maneuver is just good for air show" because that argument is only based that the Su-27 can't have the speed and then use the super maneuverability in situation correctly when it gives that edge over speed.

 

Speed is always needed to outrun a threat, but maneuverability is to dodge that threat and smartness is to avoid that threat in the first place regardless are you fast or maneuverable.

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You just ruined 100 years of fighter evolution and tactics. :music_whistling:

 

Interestingly, if we look at evlolution of figher designs:

- Up to the 3rd gen, jet fighters were primarily built around speed and climb rate, some were relatively agile, but more as a side effect of their design than pure consideration of maneuverability.

- 4th gen de-emhasized that compared to agility, and fighter aircraft of this generation designed with an emphasis on agility. Indeed, some of the most famous fighters of this era such as the F-16 and F/A-18 are not as fast as most 3rd gen aircraft, but are still known for their prowess in dogfights.

- 5th gen planes are again designed with agility in mind, and while the figures aren't known to public yet, they probably aren't exactly as fast as the faster planes of the previous generation, or at most only marginally faster.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying speed is not important, not even necessarily saying that agility is more important, but the trend in fighter designs in last 40 years or so, seem to favor agility quite a bit too, some times even to the detriment of a little speed.

 

Last fighter/interceptor designs that put emphasis purely on the speed I can think of were F-104, F-106, MiG-23, MiG-31, and MiG-25, none of which are particularly famous for their air combat prowess. The fame seem to follow the ones that find a balance between the two attributes of speed and agility :).

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Why in the world are you guys matching up the A-10C with the Mustang?

 

Because, apparently, it is a good basis for a silly argument.

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vs AI ? Makes no sense. Play 10 rounds in PvP against friend with similar skills, 5 rounds per plane then turn. And guns only of course. The plane with best dogfighting capabilities would have more than 7 victories...below, we cannot say who's the best, or get any conclusion (can be due to skills difference)

 

I agree, however assuming a player would be better than an Excellent AI, it actually strengthens my conclusion, since I lost to the Excellent AI in the A-10C. My first match in the F-15C was really just there to prove that I have at least some idea of what I'm doing. I'm not very good, but I'm not terrible either.

 

Why in the world are you guys matching up the A-10C with the Mustang? Has that fight ever come up in real life? Why not use planes the A-10c might run into in real life. In which case it will probably lose.

 

Nope, this hasn't come up in real life and never will, but apparently it happens on PVP servers in DCS, so it's interesting to analyze what happens in this match-up.

 

As for real life match-ups, the A-10C has actually beaten modern fighters in AA training exercises on occasion. I can't find the source at the moment, and I'm also not aware of the engagement rules. Certainly the A-10C is at a huge disadvantage in the BVR department, so you probably wouldn't get into a dogfight to begin with. If you did make it to a dogfight, remember real life is not a guns-only gentleman's duel where you agree to not shoot head on and wait until the first merge before weapons employment is allowed, so the A-10C doesn't need to saddle up to the control point to win -- it just needs to get into any valid firing parameters for a sidewinder.

 

Also, the F-5 is still in service with many countries to this day. That might be more of a fair fight for the A-10C. Against a Su-27, though, all things being equal the A-10C is at a huge disadvantage.

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Interestingly, if we look at evlolution of figher designs:

- Up to the 3rd gen, jet fighters were primarily built around speed and climb rate, some were relatively agile, but more as a side effect of their design than pure consideration of maneuverability.

- 4th gen de-emhasized that compared to agility, and fighter aircraft of this generation designed with an emphasis on agility. Indeed, some of the most famous fighters of this era such as the F-16 and F/A-18 are not as fast as most 3rd gen aircraft, but are still known for their prowess in dogfights.

- 5th gen planes are again designed with agility in mind, and while the figures aren't known to public yet, they probably aren't exactly as fast as the faster planes of the previous generation, or at most only marginally faster.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying speed is not important, not even necessarily saying that agility is more important, but the trend in fighter designs in last 40 years or so, seem to favor agility quite a bit too, some times even to the detriment of a little speed.

 

Last fighter/interceptor designs that put emphasis purely on the speed I can think of were F-104, F-106, MiG-23, MiG-31, and MiG-25, none of which are particularly famous for their air combat prowess. The fame seem to follow the ones that find a balance between the two attributes of speed and agility :).

 

"The least impressive thing about the F22 is its speed and its maneuverability, and its one of the fastest and most maneuverable planes out there"

 

Lt. Colonel David "Chip" Berke, USMC

 

 

5th generation are built around stealth and the latest in electronics for Networking and Situational awareness. in particular the F35. Far more important than Speed Or Agility despite modern aircraft still being designed to be capable of that.

 

Ironically despite greater focus on maneuverability , since 4th gen era it has been less and less prevalent use, as aerial combat continues to get more BVR oriented with radars and missiles and other sophisticated avionics

 

 

Why in the world are you guys matching up the A-10C with the Mustang? Has that fight ever come up in real life? Why not use planes the A-10c might run into in real life. In which case it will probably lose.

 

 

exactly i find its pretty absurd too.

 

 

Nope, this hasn't come up in real life and never will, but apparently it happens on PVP servers in DCS, so it's interesting to analyze what happens in this match-up.

 

As for real life match-ups, the A-10C has actually beaten modern fighters in AA training exercises on occasion. I can't find the source at the moment, and I'm also not aware of the engagement rules. Certainly the A-10C is at a huge disadvantage in the BVR department, so you probably wouldn't get into a dogfight to begin with. If you did make it to a dogfight, remember real life is not a guns-only gentleman's duel where you agree to not shoot head on and wait until the first merge before weapons employment is allowed, so the A-10C doesn't need to saddle up to the control point to win -- it just needs to get into any valid firing parameters for a sidewinder.

 

Also, the F-5 is still in service with many countries to this day. That might be more of a fair fight for the A-10C. Against a Su-27, though, all things being equal the A-10C is at a huge disadvantage.

 

 

 

 

this.

 

bolded bit in particular. you said it much better.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Look, I don't see much point in wasting more time arguing with you. As far as I can tell, you're being intentionally ignorant for the sake of contrarian argumentation; I don't appreciate that. You can believe what you like, I suppose; it's clear that you have no interest in how the two really compare in a dogfight. Anyone with both modules can quickly do a few tests against a human opponent of similar skill, at which point it will become obvious that I know well how the two compare as dogfighters. Good day.

 

No it is you who refuses to acknowledge alternatives or the ability to accept fact the the that the P51 will not win every single engagement against a pilot who knows what hes dong in the A10C, simply because you happen to be better at the P51 and not as good as using the A10's strengths to your advantage. Again there are far greater threats to the A10, and they are all faster and from a comparable generation with radars and missiles.. as another user said not every aerial encounter is a gentlemanly fight the way you would wish it were.

 

 

 

Build:

 

 

 

 

 

Windows 10 64 bit,

 

Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z370- E Motherboard, Intel Core i7 8700k ( Noctua NH14S cooler),Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 32gb ram (2666 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia Gtx 1080 8gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; WD 1TB HDD, Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD.

 

 

 

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