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1.5.7 and "Joysticks without spring and FFB" trim mode


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When I saw it in patch notes I was so happy I will be finally able to fly Ka50 and it won't annoy me constantly in the process.

 

However this trim mode seems to be broken. It does nothing for me. Only when "trim rudder" is enabled, rudder trim works. However X and Y axies won't trim. It behaves like you're not hitting the trim button at all. Axis always returs to the center no matter what I do.

 

Anyone having the same issue?

The Ancient Fox

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I have a feeling it just centers the authority box essentially. I checked what it does even though I don't have a springless non-FFB stick (I have an X65F force sensing stick) and it kinda seemed at first to not work at all... but... With the way that the trim works as a limiter in various modes (like auto hover) I think it offers a new way to center the trim authority box for users who do have springless non-FFB sticks. Seems like it'll work for them just fine :).

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Then please explain me how it works. I have such a joystick and it does not work at all for me. I expected it will work in the same way as in the Mi8/Uh-1/Gazelle does. There it is great.

 

It is just in Ka50 such a pain to trim with nonFFB joystick. It seems they realized it so they added option for us. But how the hell it works I do not understand. From my point of view it does exactly nothing.

The Ancient Fox

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This mode exists for people that are using non-centering sticks. The description makes it sound like force sensing sticks fit in this category but they still "spring" back to center when you let go.

 

It disables the axis trimming while keeping the autopilot trimming. Previously this had to be done by editing the FMOptions.lua

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I believe the UH1, Mi8 and Ka50 have the same three modes to choose from now and they should all work the same,(The Gazelle has its own implementation that trims attitude instead of the stick position) it's not the Ka50 autopilot that's messing with you?

Does it behave better in Flight Director mode?

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What happen is, that I level up aircraft (f.e. after slowing down when you need to push the nose upwards), move the stick where I want it to be (where the aircraft's nose is alighned with horizont), press trimmer and what I do expect (and other modules do) is that the nose stays where it is and I can release my stick to center position without messing anything up.

 

When I do it in Ka50 I mess up position of my nose, it continues in direction from where "it came". Like I push the stick towards myself to level up aircraft from dive, set the nose to horizon, hit trimm and release the stick. What Ka50 does is that after this it raises the nose (quite rapidly, easily over 20°). I've tried all trimm modes available yet none is working as expected.

 

There is also a way with holding the trimmer button instead of hiting it. It works in a same way but the problem is not at the "end" but at the "start". You have aircraft in any position trimmed, you hit and hold the trimmer button without moving the stick anywhere from center position and the nose start to dive/climb (related to where it has been trimmed before change).

 

That is pretty annoying you see :(

The Ancient Fox

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That definitely sounds like the autopilot working and it's perfectly normal.

For a more typical helicopter experience you can turn on the Flight Director mode, explained in the first post below(#5).

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=569223&postcount=27

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=572028&postcount=34

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=568723&postcount=16

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I see now that it is my misunderstandment of the aircraft's systems. Flight Director's mode indeed works good for me. Thank you very much for learning me that! Only thing I am kind of sad about is that it looks like aircraft ignore other autopilot channels, like heading, thus auto-turn as well. I guess I will need to learn to switch on and off DH mode as needed depending on current situation.

The Ancient Fox

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My understanding about "Joystick without spring and FFB", from when it was introduced in the Mi-8, is that it is for spring- and FFB-less sticks WITH ENOUGH FRICTION FOR IT TO STAY IN PLACE WHEN LETTING GO!

(sorry for "screaming", only want to highlight the main point here)

Some developer at Belsimtek showed in a thread (I can't find again) how they modified a stick, removed the spring and added some extra friction to make it possible to let go of the stick AT THE POSITION WHERE TRIM BUTTON WAS PRESSED, i.e. the physical stick and the virtual one stay in the same position WITHOUT FFB.

 

If you don't have enough friction, you need to hold it in (the exact) place yourself. But if you do, I believe AP will work.

If you have a "heavy" stick the friction need to be so high that it affects the feeling and handling of it in an adverse way. Then you need one of the two original trim modes, i.e. return to center.

 

I have a PFT Lynx and it's a spring- and FFB-less stick but with way to heavy cyclic, so I can't use this.

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Instead of using FD mode just use the trim like it's meant to be used in the KA-50 :).

 

Hold the trim button in... Fly the aircraft... When you get the aircraft to the attitude/flight path you want it to continue going in then release the trim button and center your controls.

 

Just tapping the trim button doesn't do the right thing. Because it's not designed to be used that way.

 

Look at it more like the button allows you to "grab the trim", then move it by flying the chopper into it's new trajectory, the "let go of the trim at it's new spot".

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Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

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Instead of using FD mode just use the trim like it's meant to be used in the KA-50 :).

 

Hold the trim button in... Fly the aircraft... When you get the aircraft to the attitude/flight path you want it to continue going in then release the trim button and center your controls.

 

Just tapping the trim button doesn't do the right thing. Because it's not designed to be used that way.

 

Look at it more like the button allows you to "grab the trim", then move it by flying the chopper into it's new trajectory, the "let go of the trim at it's new spot".

 

That's good advice. Thanks.

 

I've noticed sometimes with that approach that I eventually run out of ways to change the attitude for some reason, as if I've reached the end of the trimmer range (if that's a thing); once that's the case, the only thing that helps is resetting the trimmer.

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I've never had that happen...

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Nvidia RTX2080 (HP Reverb)

Asus Prime X570P

AMD 3800x

32GB G-Skill RipJaw 3600

 

Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals

Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

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Instead of using FD mode just use the trim like it's meant to be used in the KA-50 :).

 

There is also a way with holding the trimmer button instead of hiting it. It works in a same way but the problem is not at the "end" but at the "start". You have aircraft in any position trimmed, you hit and hold the trimmer button without moving the stick anywhere from center position and the nose start to dive/climb (related to where it has been trimmed before change).

 

In reality, the second method is not advised or typically used by Ka-50 pilots, because holding down the trimmer button while maneuvering the helicopter can easily lead to oversteering.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=572028&postcount=34

The Ancient Fox

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"You may trim in either discreet presses/releases of the button or by holding the button down while you maneuver the helicopter into the desired position. Once the helicopter is stable, you can release the trim button to command the FCS to stabilize the current flight parameters. In reality, the second method is not advised or typically used by Ka-50 pilots, because holding down the trimmer button while maneuvering the helicopter can easily lead to oversteering."

 

Once you learn to fly the "oversteering" isn't an issue. If you fly with the trimmer not held in then you're fighting the trimmer's control authority that originates at it's currently trimmed position.

 

Seriously... I've run the Blackshark for quite a few hours.

 

Hold the button.

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Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

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While holding the trim button down can certainly be useful, it's absolutely not the "correct" or "intended" thing to do. Both options are available for a reason and their use is completely situational.

Real pilots tap the button until the trim is where they want it so that's what I've elected to do.

 

But I also use arrival/departure charts for fun so I might be slightly biased in the "following real procedures" department.

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This mode exists for people that are using non-centering sticks. The description makes it sound like force sensing sticks fit in this category but they still "spring" back to center when you let go.

 

It disables the axis trimming while keeping the autopilot trimming. Previously this had to be done by editing the FMOptions.lua

 

It as well works for custom made sticks where you have removed the spring and added few hydraulics that keep the stick position exactly where you move it.

 

It is very nice to fly with such sticks as you always know how the aircraft is going and you don't need to worry about trimming (in aircrafts) at all

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I'm just not concerned with how the manufacturer intended the aircraft systems be used. I'm concerned with making it all work the best I can to kill as much stuff as possible.

 

If I'm not doing it the way it was designed I couldn't care less. Maybe if the trim in the real Blackshark works like ours then maybe the real pilots should try it my way :). I would pretty much bet they do except in the edge case of slight re-trim where it doesn't matter... But when you're really going aerobatic and dodging missiles and returning short range fire with the gun in HMS mode... Yeah... tapping is bad mojo sir :). You're just constantly fighting against the trim center. If you're one of those "gentle" pilots that only uses vikhr's at 8.5K like a sniper and then you go home to rearm then fine... stick with the tap method :). It works great there.

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Asus Prime X570P

AMD 3800x

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Saitek X-65F and Fanatec Club-Sport Pedals

Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

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For anyone that's interested, this is a breakdown of the different trim modes when used with non-FFB joysticks:

 

Default - When the trim button is pressed, the center position of the joystick is set to the joystick's current position, and joystick input is disabled for a short moment before it's re-enabled. The intended use is for you to press the trim button, then immediately release the joystick, and the heli will fly as if you are holding it in the position that you pressed the trim button at. Any joystick input afterwards will be treated as inputs in addition to the trimmed position. For example, if you're holding the joystick at a +5 position, then press the trim button and keep the same joystick position, you will now be flying the helicopter at +10. Your joystick movements are relative to the position that it was last trimmed at.

 

Central Position Trimmer Mode - The same as Default, but rather than disabling joystick input for a short moment before re-enabling it, you now have to center the joystick before input is re-enabled. This is useful if you don't want to press the trim button and inadvertently lurch the heli to one side because you didn't center it fast enough, but a lot of people don't like this mode because it feels less responsive than Default.

 

Joystick Without Spring and FFB - The joystick position is the absolute position of the cyclic, period. True to its name, this is intended for non-FFB joysticks that have the centering spring removed. Pressing the trim button only programs the auto-pilot, but doesn't affect joystick input behavior.

 

All of these modes are intended to be workarounds for non-FFB joysticks. If you have a FFB joystick with Force Feedback enabled in the options, the selected trim mode is ignored.

 

In the real helicopter, the trim button will reset the centering force to the cyclic's current position, and holding it down will disable the trim force altogether until released. This is why in the real helicopter, pilots (and people with FFB joysticks) do not hold it down but rather press the trim repeatedly. If you hold it down, you can no longer feel the amount of force you're using, making it very easy to oversteer. This doesn't matter for non-FFB joysticks, as the centering force always exists.

 

Also, the trim reset option exists when there's no such thing in the real heli. It's an easy to way to instant re-center the cyclic's position so that you can start your inputs from 0 instead of an offset.

 

This is why you see people giving different advice about how to use the trimmer and Flight Director mode in the Ka-50. For non-FFB joystick users, it's easier to hold down the trim button, move to the position you want to be in, and release. There's not much point in using the Flight Director because the trim button does the same thing.

 

For FFB joystick users though, holding down the trim button removes all force, so it's preferable to press the button instead of holding it down. Flight Director is often used because it allows flying of the heli without having to tap the trim button repeatedly and having the force on the joystick change with every press.

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Prior to the patch, there was a checkbox in the game options interface, under the 'special' tab called "center trimming mode". This was the solution to the problem you seem to be describing. When you let go of the trim, the aircraft lurches towards where your stick is pointed. The Center Trim mode box made it so that the aircraft doesn't start responding to input after a trim until the joystick is centered again.

 

The problem? This option is missing from the interface in the most recent patch. Any chance we could get it back? Everything was fine with that checked. Now it's a mess trying to control.

Thanks

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How do I re-enable the functionality of the old "Center Position Trimming" which is both a) apparently disabled by default and b) missing from the interface?

1. Go to the options, click on Special tab. Select Ka-50 from the list on the left.

2. Click on the dropdown for Trimmer Mode.

3. Select "Center Position Trimmer Mode".

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