IAF Su-30MKI defeaded UK F3 Tornados. Next the EF2000...

[LaRata]

Hi All :

 

Not sure if any have post this before...

 

I read son time ago that the UK F3 Tornado have very powerfull Radar. But it was no match for the IAF Su-30MKI in all type of combat.

 

Now next year they will face the UK EF-2000 ...

 

http://www.aviapedia.com/news/indian-flankers-beat-raf-tornados-20061212

 

Luis "LaRata" Barreto

[britgliderpilot]

I've heard that the UK's been copy-pasting some US government docs and laws, but the "Su30-beats-our-current-aircraft-buy-more-new-ones" argument does seem a bit obviously recycled . . . . .

 

 

As ever, no conditions stated - Skyflash vs R27ER would be more or less a forgone conclusion, WVR would be a foregone conclusion . . . . not sure if the Tornado has multi-target capability with the AMRAAM, either.

 

 

Against Eurofighter and Meteor, though, I still wouldn't be too concerned. Will watch with interest, though :)

[Starlight]

with all respect, IMHO, is just crap news. It has little or no meaning if you want to evaluate the tactics and the capabilities of air forces and their aircraft.

 

Indian Air force officials said that the Tornado F.3 was no match for the Su-30MKI

could you expect them to say "OMG those new flankers suck we wasted 100-zillion dollars"?

 

RAF Air Marshall Cristopher N. Harper commented that the Eurofighter Typhoon at the time entering service is trhoughoutly a different case. He said that the Su-30MKI has little change to survive in the hands of the Typhoon.

could you expect him to say "OMG they would have annihilated us even if we had our new 1-billion pound typhoon"?

No.

 

they all need some propaganda if they want something to fly on...

[BBushe]

I remember reading back in the 80's or something, back home in New Zealand, the NZ army beat their US Army guests in a number of exercises. The grunts weren't too worried though as they were stoned the whole time...

 

WATCH OUT BUSH (no relation!) THE KIWIS ARE THE REAL THREAT!

[Force_Feedback]

I remember reading back in the 80's or something, back home in New Zealand, the NZ army beat their US Army guests in a number of exercises. The grunts weren't too worried though as they were stoned the whole time...

 

WATCH OUT BUSH (no relation!) THE KIWIS ARE THE REAL THREAT!

 

Heh, you know, during WW2, some rare kind of weed plant got wiped out by the US, and not by some prudish eradication program either... It was smoked till it was gone, must have been some potent shit, dang. All I got to say to those NZ/USMC/US Army grutns (and thunderbird pilots): "Smoke on!"

[ViperEagle]

What were the ROE's?

 

Was it a full on fight? were both sides fighting to their best?

 

Were the F3's simulating a Red Air aggressor force?

 

Were there restrctions on the Tornados?

 

Was there AWACS support on both sides?

 

Were the Tornados outnumbered?

 

 

These questions must have answers before you draw a conclusion. the F-15C's were outnumbered 3:1 AND..they werent allowed to use the AMRAAM to it's fullest capability AND they didnt have V2 radar...

 

I'm getting sick and tired of this IAF propaganda, the -30MKI is impressive, but it's not unbeatable, F-15's and F-16's got WVR/BFM kills on it, but you dont hear that because it wouldnt suit the Indian Air Forces needs.

 

Really, the -30MKI is impressive, but I get tired of the frantic masturbating over it.

[gundelgauk]

Was it a full on fight? were both sides fighting to their best?

Honestly, I can't imagine any fighter pilot doing anything but their best in a combat engagement, be it for training or real. From what I've read, those people have a lot of pride.

Were there restrctions on the Tornados?

Were the Tornados outnumbered?

I can't imagine any reasons why people would want to place any kinds of restrictions on the Tornados in this kind of exercise. Aren't they in the disadvantage as it is?

 

The rest of your questions are (at least in my humble opinion) very valid and deserve answers.

 

[...]I get tired of the frantic masturbating over it.

I laughed hard at this one. Thx.:megalol:

[GGTharos]

Honestly, I can't imagine any fighter pilot doing anything but their best in a combat engagement, be it for training or real. From what I've read, those people have a lot of pride.

 

Because they've been ordered to? Because any and all advanced equipment they might have had has been ordered turned off?

Because the Tornados are simulating Pakistani F-16's?

It was done before, why not now?

 

I can't imagine any reasons why people would want to place any kinds of restrictions on the Tornados in this kind of exercise. Aren't they in the disadvantage as it is?

 

Then you need to realize that these exercises aim to simulate some form of realistic geopolitical scenario local to the host country usually, and you'll be able to imagine a little more ;)

[gundelgauk]

(I'll skip the quotes for better readability)

 

Ok, first please realize that I'm in no way an expert on anything that goes on here. I'm merely a guy who is enjoying good combat flight simulations and is interested in the technology.

 

It's just beyond my understanding why anyone would limit the capabilities of the technologically inferior adversary in such a training excercise. If you'd want to train your pistol skills against someone armed with only a knife, would you insist on him dropping the knife and use his bare hands only?

[GGTharos]

If I wanted to simulate using a pistol against someone using bare hands only, yes.

 

In addition all of the parties there have a vested interest in not using 'war reserve' radar/rwr/ecm modes as well.

[Guest Mito]

 

It's just beyond my understanding why anyone would limit the capabilities of the technologically inferior adversary in such a training excercise. If you'd want to train your pistol skills against someone armed with only a knife, would you insist on him dropping the knife and use his bare hands only?

 

I'm sure some limitations have been introduced BUT no in sucha way that would make Brits look like sheeps for slaughter. So, I do believe it was a fairly balanced excercise (regardless of politicall circumanstances).

 

A year ago there was an excercise between Brittish and Hungarian Airforce in which Tornados beat the crap out of hungarian Mig-29s BVR and some goes for WVR (Hungarians fared little better there with some kills, but it was still double win for the guests). These things are normal and it is unlikely so many resources, time and manpower would be used to stage an excercise that is completely unrealistic, just to favour one side for whatever politicall reasons.

[gundelgauk]

Thanks for your replies and for not outright flaming me. :D

 

Sorry, I did not mean to agitate a debate. While it seemed reasonable to me to conduct excercises against real foreign air forces, I just could not comprehend why anyone would want to train against an inferior enemy in order to improve oneself. After reading your replies however, it makes sense in some circumstances.

 

Thanks for the informative replies. And please do not mind my uneducated guesses. I was just trying to get information as I was a bit confused about the whole scenario.

[ViperEagle]

Exactly,

 

In India they do what is called "Full Blue on Blue" meaning their combat training is full bore, balls to the wall, give it all you've got. In the US, UK and such, they do "Blue vs. Red", where the "red" force uses tactics and technological emulator modes to simulate likely opposing forces. It's largely how the US and UK, allied forces, etc, have such a good combat record in the Gulf, over Yugoslavia and Kosovo.

 

In "Cope India", where the F-15C's were at a disadvantage, they were simulating Pakistani F-16's with Sidewinder and sparrow missiles, as opposed to what they really were, F-15C's with long range ARH missiles, Aim-9X's, and now, AESA radars.

 

When you tie your hands to fight like your opponent, it's not suprising you dont do well.

[Starlight]

Honestly, I can't imagine any fighter pilot doing anything but their best in a combat engagement, be it for training or real. From what I've read, those people have a lot of pride.

 

maybe because it's just _training_.

If aggressor instructor pilots were supposed to fight at their best during mock fights, younger trainees won't learn anything, they'd be beaten each and every time...

 

The aim of most exercises is not to destroy the enemy but to develop some kind of tactics, to build confidence with some system, or to learn more in-depth some things...

It's not always a matter of annihilating the enemy with overwhelming power and aggresiveness.

 

And there is another important thing about this case. This is a multinational exercise. After 50 years British troops came back to India. In your opinion did the British commanders order their pilots to fight aggressively? IMHO _no_

 

and did the Indian commanders told their pilots to fight at their best? IMHO _yes_

 

It's not just a simple matter of military aviation, it's more about foreign relations and sending also politcal messages

 

Having said that, it may be that the Tornado is no match for the Sue's. But it may also be not that true.

[Alfa]

 

These questions must have answers before you draw a conclusion. the F-15C's were outnumbered 3:1 AND..they werent allowed to use the AMRAAM to it's fullest capability AND they didnt have V2 radar...

 

I'm getting sick and tired of this IAF propaganda, the -30MKI is impressive, but it's not unbeatable, F-15's and F-16's got WVR/BFM kills on it, but you dont hear that because it wouldnt suit the Indian Air Forces needs.

 

Really, the -30MKI is impressive, but I get tired of the frantic masturbating over it.

 

If you are talking about that beaten-to-death Cope india exercise, then you might take into consideration that the Su-30MKI wasn't simulated......it didn't participate at all :D .

 

It was the "plain vanilla" Su-30K, which means no ARH missiles and no phased array radar either ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Guest IguanaKing]

These exercises aren't a "gloves off", "no holds barred" competition anyway. :D

[Pilotasso]

If you are talking about that beaten-to-death Cope india exercise, then you might take into consideration that the Su-30MKI wasn't simulated......it didn't participate at all :D .

 

It was the "plain vanilla" Su-30K, which means no ARH missiles and no phased array radar either ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

there were 2 cope india exercises. In the last they used the MKI, but the song was just the same " we need more raptors " thing.

[ViperEagle]

Yep, I meant in BOTH cases. Both Cope India 1 and 2.

[Groove]

As long as there are no real missilies in the air i dont take this excersises for real. And there is always one side which is setting the rules so their airplanes win for sure ;)

[gundelgauk]

maybe because it's just _training_.

If aggressor instructor pilots were supposed to fight at their best during mock fights, younger trainees won't learn anything, they'd be beaten each and every time...

 

Sorry for the small off topic post but I had to laugh because that's exactly what happens when people like me try and play online on Hyperlobby. :lol:

 

Other than that, from what I've read in your posts, one shouldn't take results from such training excercises too seriously. Good way to keep the "plane x is better than plane y" discussions down. ;)

[Alfa]

there were 2 cope india exercises

 

What...another one? :D . Ok I hadn't even heard of the second one :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Groove]

What...another one? :D . Ok I hadn't even heard of the second one :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Strafing taxiing F-15s by the Indian Airforce ;)

[BBushe]

Sorry for the small off topic post but I had to laugh because that's exactly what happens when people like me try and play online on Hyperlobby. :lol:

 

 

good call, mate!

 

I guess hyperlobby is full scale war!

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

It's largely how the US and UK, allied forces, etc, have such a good combat record in the Gulf, over Yugoslavia and Kosovo.

Over Yugoslavia and Yugoslavia (Kosovo was/is Yugoslavia, Serbia), NATO (mostly USA) brought more then 10 aircraft for every aircraft in Yugo inventory. NATO relied on numbers rather then technology. There was multiple fighters (F-15's, F-16's, F-18's) for every Yugoslavian MiG-29A. Yugoslavians did not have ARH’s.

[wsoul2k]

The latest CRUXEX in Brazil was in the beggining an no scripted exercise..BUT after the F-5BR start to riping off the Mirage2000 from the sky they hev being ordered to lost

 

PS:The mirage was ordered to fill the GAP to Braziliam Air Force until a new figther was selected, and after the firsts combats some people ( POLITICS ) start asking this to the air force

 

"why we are buying the MIRAGE if the F-5 is beaten it every time?"

 

So guess what ?? ;)