Mirage 2000 performances

[Jugdriver]

Unfortunately, it seem a large part of the community did'nt even noticed something was wrong with the FM, while the other part was afraid to complaint because they are tired to ear always the same arguments "What are your data ?/This is because delta wing/This is realistic you are just dumb/bad pilot/need practice" from the first part... I have to admit i am more angry against some part of the community than against Razbam.

 

It was noticed as gavagai pointed out a while back and I figured (with most others I suspect) it was being worked on. That said I hear where you are coming from with the "where's your data" question as anyone who has flown the Mirage hard in the past couple of months would (or should) know that if you get her too slow she does a very convincing impression of a brick, so instead of saying where is your data folks should have said it was a known issue.

 

Just think of it as energy management training..

 

JD

 

AKA_MattE

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jugdriver

[sedenion]

Just think of it as energy management training..

 

Hm, no, sorry, I think of it as a major issue, since the aircraft is clarly underpowered and unable to dogfight (and even barely able to take off) ... in contrary than the small innaccuracies with data charts regularly pointed out by some people while crying "Ho My God, The Mirage Is Over Powered by 0.1 % in sustained turn rate at 15.000 ft, This is A Scandal !"

[laumaya]

Hm, no, sorry, I think of it as a major issue, since the aircraft is clarly underpowered and unable to dogfight (and even barely able to take off) ... in contrary than the small innaccuracies with data charts regularly pointed out by some people while crying "Ho My God, The Mirage Is Over Powered by 0.1 % in sustained turn rate at 15.000 ft, This is A Scandal !"

 

+1

I prefer small innaccuracies with data charts with an over powered mirage 2000 than the current underpowered like a mirage 3.

 

:pilotfly:

[myHelljumper]

Hm, no, sorry, I think of it as a major issue, since the aircraft is clarly underpowered and unable to dogfight (and even barely able to take off)

 

You are taking it too far. I can take off and land in any configuration with no problem. I can dogfight F-16/Mig-29/Su-27/F-15.... with no problem with good energy management.

 

The changes that will be made will not change the fact that the delta is a big air-brake and that the 2000 needs more careful energy management.

 

BTW :

Sorry to ask for a bit more data when the only info you give is 'i simply tested a guns only dogfight against a mig-29 (100% fuel, no missils)... and, it is obvious that the Mirage 2000 is now clearly a flying brick"

This way I can say "this is obvious that the 2000 can turn 2x more than a Su-27 or a F-15" or "this is obvious that the missiles should have more range".

Edited June 6, 2017 by myHelljumper

[sedenion]

You are taking it too far. I can take off and land in any configuration with no problem.

 

I confirm the Mirage 2000 take off... like a Su-25... but sure, it take off...

[gavagai]

You are taking it too far. I can take off and land in any configuration with no problem. I can dogfight F-16/Mig-29/Su-27/F-15.... with no problem with good energy management.

 

AI doesn't count.

 

Against the current M2K I'm confident I could outfly a good pilot with the Fishbed.

[myHelljumper]

I confirm the Mirage 2000 take off... like a Su-25... but sure, it take off...

 

Please show it to me, this is not my experience of the plane.

 

Edit : I'm talking about AI and players. Of course you could win against a 2000 the problem is not here.

Edited June 6, 2017 by myHelljumper

[jojo]

Guys, there is no need to argue anymore.

 

The FM bug has been acknowledged and will be fixed. But there is no need to deny the bug either.

 

Lets wait the next update.

 

By the way, regression sometimes happen during dev. This is the way it is. As long as it's fixed it's OK.

[Jugdriver]

Just think of it as energy management training..

Hm, no, sorry, I think of it as a major issue, since the aircraft is clarly underpowered and unable to dogfight (and even barely able to take off) ... in contrary than the small innaccuracies with data charts regularly pointed out by some people while crying "Ho My God, The Mirage Is Over Powered by 0.1 % in sustained turn rate at 15.000 ft, This is A Scandal !"

 

That was sarcasm sedenion, sorry it did not translate, I should have used three periods...

 

I agree with you that this issue does need attention and I would rather see the older slightly over-performing FM than this FM with its issue. That said I still find it competitive against other aircraft right now and the old FM issues had it accelerating in the sustained turn. Either way Razbam is looking into it and it will improve, I am confident of that.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

Edited June 6, 2017 by Jugdriver

[sedenion]

Please show it to me, this is not my experience of the plane.

First, i want to point out that I am not alone to have this perception, and there are some clear argument here, as "Fox One" noticed:

 

I performed the following test. With 50% fuel at low altitude, I performed slow horizontal flight with a speed corresponding to an AOA of 20 deg. For both F-15 and Su-27 with the speed close to constant the necessary RPM was about 83-84%. With Mirage 2000 afterburner is needed.

 

How on earth could the difference possibly be that huge?

 

We fly the same module... why you don't have the same perception ? There can be many good answere to this question. here is some of them:

 

- You fly with it regularly, so you even did not noticied the difference between when the FM was okay and now. Me, I just return to play after 4-6 months away, so i clearly seen something changed.

 

- You are so deepely accustomed to have hard time to dogfight, that you did not even noticed something is clearly wrong, even by "managing energy".

 

- I flyed other modules, like Su-27 (Avanced FM) and F-15... and you can't tell me that the Mirage 2000 can't compets the Su-27 in dogfight, however, currently this is the case !

 

- Maybe you underestimate the Mirage 2000... so i just have to rembeber you the Mirage 2000 is far closer to the F-16 than the Mig-21 in term of performances, since the Mirage 2000 is a direct competitor to the F-16.

 

- Etc.

Edited June 6, 2017 by sedenion

[sedenion]

That was sarcasm sedenion, sorry it did not translate, I should have used three periods...

 

Ok sorry... the fact is that here, this is sometime hard to distinguish humor from serious sentences...

[myHelljumper]

I did not said you were wrong on the bug (look at it I did not :)).

 

I'm saying that I think you are wrong with the fact that it can't dogfight.

How do I manage to win my online dogfights then ?

 

It's okay if you can't stand anyone else view on it but it's really bad that we can't have a discussion on this subject without people getting angry at it....

[SkateZilla]

Lets Keep the discussion Professional and Respectful towards other users.

[sedenion]

Edited after Moderation intervention

[mvsgas]

Are you guys even talking about the same version? I see the issue in 1.5 but not in 2.1 Could that explain why some see it and others don't?

[sedenion]

Are you guys even talking about the same version? I see the issue in 1.5 but not in 2.1 Could that explain why some see it and others don't?

 

I tryed the dogfight in 1.5... i just tested some flight in 2.1, but as i seen in 2.1 how the Mirage have hard time to lift while taking off with the standard 2*530 & 2*Magic payload, i guess the problem is the same in both version.

Edited June 6, 2017 by sedenion

[Slims]

Well with dumbed down FM but OP damage engine it`s somewhat balanced don`t you think ? Makes for the most complete module. Doesn't matter if you can`t turn you can survive a 120 to the face then you can shoot back so no issues here.

Jokes aside, nobody said it can`t dogfight, just that at this moment a mig21 can definitely do it better, m2k simply has no power, after a sharp turn with full AB you gotta nose down to gather airspeed. Do the same in a 21 when you go full burner you feel the engine kick in... Few months back it wasn't like this. Try a vertical takeoff in m2k now and see how that goes think an airbus can do it better.

Why every time someone has something to criticize about this plane there are the same 5 people jumping at their necks ? Things like this getting fixed makes this module better for everyone.

[mvsgas]

As I tried this morning, 2.1 you can fly at high alpha (within margin of course) Within 1.5, at around 18 to 21 Alpha, your nose sharply drops ( as is FBW is trying to correct it) and enter a deep stall ( As Capt Smiley posted, to high drag IIRC)

 

By the way, we all agree this conversation is pointless since it has been acknowledge by development team changes are forthcoming.

[sedenion]

As I tried this morning, 2.1 you can fly at high alpha (within margin of course) Within 1.5, at around 18 to 21 Alpha, your nose sharply drops ( as is FBW is trying to correct it) and enter a deep stall ( As Capt Smiley posted, to high drag IIRC)

 

By the way, we all agree this conversation is pointless since it has been acknowledge by development team changes are forthcoming.

 

I just tested (not very rigorously), and i see the same problem in 2.1:, with 100% fuel + 2*Magic, bellow ~150kt with 10° AOA, it is barely possible to keep altitude with full AB. If you go under ~110 kts, the aircraft just fall like a leaf, and even with full afterburner this is unrecoverable, the aircraft don't accelerate anymore, you have, as Slims said, to seriously pull down and pray to have enough altitude... All this, only after some 4-6 Gs turns...

Edited June 6, 2017 by sedenion

[Davee]

Guys, there is no need to argue anymore.

 

The FM bug has been acknowledged and will be fixed. But there is no need to deny the bug either.

 

Lets wait the next update.

 

By the way, regression sometimes happen during dev. This is the way it is. As long as it's fixed it's OK.

 

:thumbup:

[Jammer.]

Interesting interview with Ian Black. Some quotes:

"The Mirage 2000 is probably the ultimate fighter pilot's airplane."

".. you could do anything with it you wanted, you can point it in any direction and it would just keep flying."

".. and it was pretty foolproof really, you couldn't stall it as such, if you span the airplane you flicked the switch and it would come out of the spin. And you could pull 9.5Gs all day long."

 

That sounds exactly like the Mirage 2000 I've read in books, seen on videos, doing all kind of maneuvers at airshows or else. We all know how agile, nimble and very capable the Mirage 2000 is IRL. Unfortunately, this isn't currently reflected in the module.

 

I see that I'm not the only one to think that the Mirage isn't behaving properly. I have to admit that I felt reluctant to post in this thread. Concerns about the FM/performance being off have been raised before, but since no updates have been released for a good while, and obviously some people happy with it, or maybe just wanting to keep things the way they are, I felt that any complaints wouldn't make any difference.

 

But I'm glad this thread came up. Being open and exposing the faults (while avoiding personal attacks) should lead into something positive. And since the issues will be addressed and prioritized for the module, it gives me hopes again. We'll see what happens.

I've actually stopped flying it for some time now, as it's just not enjoyable to me. And I guess, as someone mentioned, it is a bit worrying that the Mirage is at this state so far after release, but it is what it is.

The good part is that Razbam has good communication with us and that they have acknowledged the problem. CptSmiley gave us direct answers, and is working on it, so all I can say is that I look forward to the upcoming FM updates.

[Davee]

I've actually stopped flying it for some time now, as it's just not enjoyable to me. And I guess, as someone mentioned, it is a bit worrying that the Mirage is at this state so far after release, but it is what it is.

The good part is that Razbam has good communication with us and that they have acknowledged the problem. CptSmiley gave us direct answers, and is working on it, so all I can say is that I look forward to the upcoming FM updates.

 

Hi Jammer,

I'm in this camp. M2000C is my aircraft to go to but regrettably I have had to put it away in the absence of upgrades required. I'm afraid though, that the longer I'm away, the less chance there is of me coming back as other components attract my attention and I will probably take a long hard look at the possibility of purchasing the Harrier. It will depend on the first reports of what is or is not working correctly.

Cats . . .

[Dehuman]

I see that I'm not the only one to think that the Mirage isn't behaving properly. I have to admit that I felt reluctant to post in this thread. Concerns about the FM/performance being off have been raised before, but since no updates have been released for a good while, and obviously some people happy with it, or maybe just wanting to keep things the way they are, I felt that any complaints wouldn't make any difference.

 

I'll admit that I myself hold little respect for the posts that are along the lines of "OMG plane is totally unflyable why can't you be like ED/BST!!!" etc.

 

Criticisms that are more eloquently worded, preferably with data and/or testing however I follow keenly. Despite some ups and downs this thread is a good example.

 

And I can honestly say the biggest challenge I have gunfighting in the M-2000C is keeping my pilot conscious. I suspect I am not alone in this. I chalk this up to flying style, I only pull high alpha for lead just before firing or to prevent an overshoot (here I'd even argue that against AI, with their total lack of inertia, the high drag can be an advantage.)

 

So whilst not necessarily of the opinion that there is no problem, it's just, the way I fly I seldom get into the situation in which it presents.

 

Of course it is possible I developed this flying style due to this incorrect drag, but I suspect the old MiG-21 FM is the more likely culprit.

[zero]

I'll admit that I myself hold little respect for the posts that are along the lines of "OMG plane is totally unflyable why can't you be like ED/BST!!!" etc.

 

Criticisms that are more eloquently worded, preferably with data and/or testing however I follow keenly. Despite some ups and downs this thread is a good example.

 

And I can honestly say the biggest challenge I have gunfighting in the M-2000C is keeping my pilot conscious. I suspect I am not alone in this. I chalk this up to flying style, I only pull high alpha for lead just before firing or to prevent an overshoot (here I'd even argue that against AI, with their total lack of inertia, the high drag can be an advantage.)

 

So whilst not necessarily of the opinion that there is no problem, it's just, the way I fly I seldom get into the situation in which it presents.

 

Of course it is possible I developed this flying style due to this incorrect drag, but I suspect the old MiG-21 FM is the more likely culprit.

 

No doubt flying style is a part of the problem. There is a reason why most aircraft have higher wing aspect ratio. Weight/thrust is not top notch either. Do not expect sustained high G turns.

Anyway:

I love the challenge and the learning curve in a different design!

:thumbup:

[sedenion]

And I can honestly say the biggest challenge I have gunfighting in the M-2000C is keeping my pilot conscious. I suspect I am not alone in this.

 

And i think this is also related to the current FM wrong behavior. As you have to deal with an incoherent FM, you need to adopt some "incoherent" adaptive tactics. The fact is that currently, below 300kts, the aircraft begins to transforming itself in a flying brick with a very high risk to lose all your energy simply by pulling a 5Gs turn. Consequently, you have to keep the mirage at a very high speed constantly, which leads you in a flight domain where the Mirage have a low turn rate, low AOA, but with high Gs, which mecanically expose you to the G lock problem.