Take off after landing tail wheel issues

[imacken]

I am struggling so badly with the Spitfire compared to other planes.

I can only manage landings with wing scraping, but that is another story.

My latest problem is with control over the tail wheel. When I land (and eventually get righted!), I try to turn around and take off again. (I've checked from the external view that the gear is not damaged.)

So, I'm sitting in the centre of the runway, rudder centred, trim adjusted, etc. for take off. THEN, whenever, I apply any throttle for take off, the Spit just starts turning furiously in the direction that I turned round in after landing, and no amount of rudder corrects it. The only way is to apply some rudder and brakes, which then sends it off in the other direction. When that is at a fair speed, the inevitable happens!

Why is this happening? Is it because the free moving tail wheel is at an angle after the turn? Surely any forward movement would correct that.

[=Pedro=]

You will need a lot of practice to run this baby properly ;)

[imacken]

You will need a lot of practice to run this baby properly ;)

 

After 2 solid weeks trying, I know that! However, that doesn't answer my specific question!

[Buzzles]

Why is this happening? Is it because the free moving tail wheel is at an angle after the turn? Surely any forward movement would correct that.

 

Yes. Apply a very small amount of throttle and roll forward very slowly to make sure you're actually lined up first before trying to take off. If you're not lined up, correct as needed with the brakes.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I found the best way to reproduce the brake is to assign it to my TS16000 button 1 ( trigger ), and then use the rudder to steer.

 

On landing, I try to land 3-point, and then, ASAP:

 

1) keep the stick pulled back;

2) retract the flaps

3) keep some power while applying brake and steering to stay on centreline

 

This works ok most of the time.

[caponi]

and check your take off trim ...

the trim may be not the same after landing ...

[DD_Fenrir]

Hi imacken,

 

Yes, your tail wheel is indeed still pointing the direction you have just come from - being free castoring it will always point at the direction it has just come from.

 

Given the tightness of the turn you are alluding to (on the spot 180) you tailwheel will be pointing 90 degrees from your desired direction of travel - there is no way that your sudden increase in power for takeoff can suddenly drag the tailwheel straight in this situation.

 

What you have to do is as you complete the turn, come off the brake input momentarily, then immediately apply opposite rudder and a touch of brake (repeat as necessary) until the aircraft rolls forward in a straight-line for about 6 feet - this is all to ensure the tailwheel is straight as possible for when you power up.

 

Remember at all times whilst taxing, and for the initial 50 odd feet of the takeoff run to keep the stick hard back.

Edited March 15, 2017 by DD_Fenrir

[imacken]

Hi imacken,

 

Yes, your tail wheel is indeed still pointing the direction you have just come from - being free castoring it will always point at the direction it has just come from.

 

Given the tightness of the turn you are alluding to (on the spot 180) you tailwheel will be pointing 90 degrees from your desired direction of travel - there is no way that your sudden increase in power for takeoff can suddenly drag the tailwheel straight in this situation.

 

What you have to do is as you complete the turn, come off the brake input momentarily, then immediately apply opposite rudder and a touch of brake (repeat as necessary) until the aircraft rolls forward in a straight-line for about 6 feet - this is all to ensure the tailwheel is straight as possible for when you power up.

 

Remember at all times whilst taxing, and for the initial 50 odd feet of the takeoff run to keep the stick hard back.

Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. All was revealed when I looked from the F2 external view what was happening with the tail wheel!

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[Hammer1-1]

With a bit of practice, you can use the propeller and brake to recenter your tail wheel. Turn the engine over at 1500rpm, with brake applied, use the rudder pedals to turn your plane in the direction you want to go. Throttle down to 1100rpm and move forward slightly to recenter. Key point is that instead of mapping your brake to a button, map it to an axis as its pressure sensitive and you only need the slightest input to brake.

[OnlyforDCS]

One other thing. Don't taxi with Max RPM. Pull the rpm lever to just above min, the throttle will be a lot more taxi friendly :)

[Sulaco]

Since your tail wheel has been answered; quick tip for landing without dropping a wing is to set your parking brake to about 15% in the air before you touch down, sounds crazy but it totally works.

[imacken]

Since your tail wheel has been answered; quick tip for landing without dropping a wing is to set your parking brake to about 15% in the air before you touch down, sounds crazy but it totally works.

Sounds interesting, but I have brakes mapped to a button on my Warthog HOTAS. I don't have any more axes to map it to.

[Perfesser]

Since your tail wheel has been answered; quick tip for landing without dropping a wing is to set your parking brake to about 15% in the air before you touch down, sounds crazy but it totally works.

 

This is the answer for taxi as well as landing. Have the brakes dragging a bit.

Your stick has dual throttles, use one as brakes.

[imacken]

This is the answer for taxi as well as landing. Have the brakes dragging a bit.

Your stick has dual throttles, use one as brakes.

Thanks, but I use one for RPM and one for throttle already.

[Sulaco]

Thanks, but I use one for RPM and one for throttle already.

 

That's ok, just hover your mouse over the brake handle and use the scroll wheel to set it at around 15%, it will stay there so you don't need to worry about mapping or holding it down.

 

Not sure if we're allowed to link vids here but this one by PhilStyle explains what I'm talking about, changed my landings in a huge way. Let us know how it works out for you!

Edited March 16, 2017 by Sulaco

[Andy1966]

One other thing. Don't taxi with Max RPM. Pull the rpm lever to just above min, the throttle will be a lot more taxi friendly :)

 

yes, and I have slowed down the throttle curve on all the piston aircraft and it helped a lot also, much more finite control

[OnlyforDCS]

That's ok, just hover your mouse over the brake handle and use the scroll wheel to set it at around 15%, it will stay there so you don't need to worry about mapping or holding it down.

 

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Wow, thats a great tip. I hate the wing dip, I find the Spit very easy to land but that wing scrape tendency is horrible. Will try this. Thanks.

[DD_Fenrir]

Ultimately the "put a bit of brake in" is irrelevant; it had some traction in 1.5.5 before the tail wheel centering mechanics were tweaked somewhat but since 1.5.6 if you fly the approach correctly, keep off the rudders and flare at the right time (if you are having this trouble still you are flaring too aggressively and too soon) then you can regularly not require any brake input at all on the roll-out from landing.*

 

By all means use it if you find that the frustrations of not getting it down cleanly are getting beyond a joke but bear in mind the following:

 

1) it is not a procedure any real warbird pilot would recommend (you'll go though brake pads like nobody's business - $$$ - plus landing with brakes already applied is a dangerous gamble with a nose over)

 

2) it points to the fact that your approach and landing technique is clumsy and requires finessing your airmanship.

 

Even if point 1 is irrelevant to you, I would suggest point 2 should be something to aspire to.

 

*note this is in zero wind conditions. if you are practising landings in other than these conditions I would suggest you have a rethink; trying to run before learning to walk is bound to result in frustration, particularly given the lack of air load on the rudder currently

[OnlyforDCS]

Im not sure I can land any cleaner than I am doing in the Spit. I find it's easier than in the Mustang. (She is very stable at low speed). I keep off the rudder, stick full aft, keep my hands of the throttle, until touchdown. Then I do the dance as required...Still. For some reason she still loves to dip that wing, no matter what I do. I think a little bit of brake pressure would go a long way in easing the ground handling on landing. If it was "never" done in the real bird then maybe that indicates there may be problems with the modeling of the ground handling part of the FM, however I doubt that.

[DD_Fenrir]

Be interested to review a track or youtube vid of your landings with the control indicator up OfD.

[Art-J]

C'mon, I'd assume Your dance is not "as required", or controller setup makes it harder than it could be (linear being too snappy?). Practicing in no-wind, or very light crosswind (instant "take-off" mission), I've never been using brakes on landing until the very last phase of slow rollout, mostly because of my hardware limitations - I don't even own proper rudder pedals. Using racing wheel pedals for rudder (25% curvature, though) and a button for brakes I scratch the wing rarely only when I:

a) mess up the flare and bounce hard;

b) mess up the flare + throttle and touch down with a slight unwanted slip.

 

I'm sure You guys with better hardware should be able to do it too without learning bad habits, which "partial brake trick" is in the long run.

 

I'm not ballsy enough to practice strong crosswind landings, however :D.

[Perfesser]

learning bad habits, which "partial brake trick" is in the long run

In this case I would say no.

Since the brakes in the Spit are slaved to rudder action you can think of the partial brake as "power rudder" or a training rudder. Lets think of this not as Spitfire training but as rudder training. Using this technique will get pilots used to the correct type of inputs required and they'll be able to correct in time to save the plane. The better you get, the quicker you'll apply those inputs required and the less brake input you'll need to use....

 

Yes you could spend many hours in a tame taildragger refining your skills before you're allowed anywhere near a real fighter plane but here we can use training wheels and have anyone up in the air and bringing em home. We don't really have to pay for those brake pads.

 

If you're having trouble landing I recommend putting your brakes on a slider or rotary and try setting your brakes at 3 (psi or whatever is gauge reads in). Just try it a few times. If it helps, try it at 2. Use whatever works for now. Next week, challenge yourself to a bit lower.

 

Try something less for taxi. Keep the stick back so you don't nose over (good ground handling practice either way).

If you can't stay straight on takeoff a tiny bit of brake is like super rudder.

 

There's a lot going on when landing, and your skills need to be in top form for these planes. It's very difficult to master a number of different skills simultaneously. The brake trick takes some of that workload down a notch or two and improves results.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Perfesser

[DD_Fenrir]

^ What he said

[Holbeach]

C'mon, I'd assume Your dance is not "as required", or controller setup makes it harder than it could be (linear being too snappy?). Practicing in no-wind, or very light crosswind (instant "take-off" mission), I've never been using brakes on landing until the very last phase of slow rollout, mostly because of my hardware limitations - I don't even own proper rudder pedals. Using racing wheel pedals for rudder (25% curvature, though) and a button for brakes I scratch the wing rarely only when I:

a) mess up the flare and bounce hard;

b) mess up the flare + throttle and touch down with a slight unwanted slip.

 

I'm sure You guys with better hardware should be able to do it too without learning bad habits, which "partial brake trick" is in the long run.

 

I'm not ballsy enough to practice strong crosswind landings, however :D.

 

 

^ What he sez.

..

[OnlyforDCS]

Ok managed to bring it down a couple of times yesterday without the wing dip, and without using the brakes. I never said it was undoable, however the induced oscillations are that much harder to correct with the dropping speed and loss of rudder authority.

 

When the wingdip does happen it almost always happens after I lose rudder authority. Maybe Im doing something wrong, but shouldn't I be using brakes at that point?? With the brakes on an axis at 10 or 15%, this is so much easier to control. Since the pilot has the brakes on an axis right on his stick (something my MSFFB2 lacks) I believe it is much more intuitive and easy to use the brakes, than on an axis on my pedals. Still feel that putting the brake axis on a slider, isn't that much of a cheat and greatly relieves the pilot workload. After all I don't have the same hardware, that the real pilot has in a real spit.

Do you guys keep some power up or do you completely throttle down before touchdown?

Edited March 17, 2017 by OnlyforDCS