The Harrier official campaign thread

[Sedlo]

Third party developers aren't making millions on this.... If they'r required to add full tutorials and full campaigns to every release then the $70.00 modules you are complaining about will quickly become $100 modules. I've written a (free) 10 mission campaign, and I can tell you I was amazed how much time I had to devote to it. It literally took me months of a few hours a night, 5-8 hours per weekend. The more I got into it, the more time I found I needed to commit. It's a massive undertaking, and this was just for a user made campaign where I had no voice actors to direct and no money coming in.

 

Cost of living is going up, cost of quality software should follow it.

 

In the province where I live, 30 years ago I paid $60.00 CDN+ for games like Microprose F-19, while the minimum wage (which I was making at the time) was $5.00/hr. The minimum wage here is now $11.35, while the cost of a module is about $70.00. Seems like a fair increase.

 

As for hidden fees, I don't see what's hidden, it's all pretty much there to see. DCS is free to download, and they give you two full modules that you can fly, even online.

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps DCS should make it a requirement of their third party developers to include a functional tutorial in the caucuses, and a campaign if we want to be serious about quality and customer satisfaction, to avoid new people joining the community only to feel like there were large hidden fees

[fergrim]

I live within 20 minutes of NYC, I know what cost of living rise looks like. This is something else.

 

are you suggesting then, that when someone purchases a DCS module, that they should consider the existence of any campaigns, tutorial or training with that module to be a free gift?

 

And that if such content doesn't exist or isn't planned to, that it's fair and good business for the customer to not be informed?

 

Honestly you must be confused or you just got off of work as a professional constructor of straw men.

 

It's standard practice for people to be informed when additional content is necessary. For example, see every single campaign mission for sale, they both indicate the map if an additional map is necessary and the vehicle module.

 

It's not a stretch and certainly not a douchily mockable suggestion to put forth that for future modules if the campaign / training content is only accessible via a paid map then that be something potential customers are informed of.

 

Suggesting otherwise is just sophistry for its own sake which I'm not paid enough to entertain.

 

If Eagle does not want to set such a standard for quality then while I'd disagree with that decision from a business survival standpoint, what I would recommend then at the least is to require it be clearly stated whether or not the product does/will include such content. Just as it's always made clear to what degree of fidelity avionics will be modeled and whether the cockpit will be fully interactive.

 

It's not exactly controversial and is already the most common practice amongst the majority of businesses including Eagle itself. It's just we're entering a new phase, with more maps releasing, where for the very first time it's become a possibility that a paid map will be required to have any campaign at all. For 50-70 dollars, it's just common courtesy for a purveyor of such modules to let the customer know.

 

This is still in early release, so there's still time to become clear about that and it's no big deal, I'm loving the harrier and Zeus and his team have done great work. I'm just saying transparency and clarity is key.

 

I'm sure the business' survival does not depend on misleading people and unless that's what you're suggesting, then what I'm suggesting is just common sense.

 

And finally, as of now, every module that has been fully released has been fully usable via the included map, suggesting that at such a time (if ever such a time arrives) that one will no longer be able to access any mission, tutorial or campaign content with the standard software package, of course it'd only be wise to make that clear to a customer. People these days are vicious, i mean, did you see what Eagle's own customers did to the people who made the "Hawk" DLC? They practically single handedly bashed them out of business. Clear communication about expectations especially when large sums of money are involved is simply a survival strategy for smart business.

 

I still have faith that we'll have base software campaign support for caucuses, as it only stands to reason, given more people run that map than any other map.

 

I like Eagle and the Harrier so far seems fantastic, I just only want to see their continued success.

 

Edit: And just to add, it's great BD will do campaigns so often, but I'd hope we weren't dependent upon someone who's pretty much a volunteer in order to have quality content for our new modules.

Edited April 7, 2018 by fergrim

[Redglyph]

are you suggesting then, that when someone purchases a DCS module, that they should consider the existence of any campaigns, tutorial or training with that module to be a free gift?

 

And that if such content doesn't exist or isn't planned to, that it's fair and good business for the customer to not be informed?

 

[...]

 

Firstly, sim is an expensive hobby, and DCS is quite cheap in comparison of other sims that don't even feature campaigns or missions. The Caucasus theatre (it's not "Caucusus" like many people tend to write) is free and awesome, which is also more than what any other sim offers.

 

The content of what you get with the final version should definitely be specified, but I think it's the case, isn't it? For this module, and for the first time, the training missions will require another map indeed, this is for the sake of consistency as Baltic explained above. But there is a manual that details the aircraft's operations, and thankfully it should be more complete than their previous module, the M-2000C (which AFAIK was never finished, and honestly sub-standard according to the usual quality we find in DCS). The current version of the manual seems promising anyway, we just have to hope they keep working on it.

 

A few other modules don't have any proper training mission, so it's not a requirement apparently. In other sims the concept doesn't even exist.

 

It does take a little more time to get an aircraft working from a manual, but that's what makes it interesting. Those modules are made to be studied and I've always found the training modules nice but superficial most of the time, except the Mirage, thanks to the great and extensive training + campaign combination - they even train for features that are not yet in the module and go much further than other modules. And except the A-10C if you count Sabre's DLC, but that isn't free. The usual training lesson allows you to quickly get in the air and get the basics of such or such feature, but you still have to learn on your own if you want to benefit from the depth of the model.

 

There are often a few good tutorials on Youtube too.

 

So if the Harrier is really what you want - and it seems to be awesome already, you can disregard the included training missions, or wait for a sales to get the other theatre at a lower cost, which will enrich your overall experience in DCS. In any case I wouldn't get too fixated on these missions, it's much better to benefit from the campaign in the Caucasus than the other way round.

 

EDIT: Just checked the latest version and the M-2000C finally has a good manual it seems, so disregard my earlier comment on this module. However, that shows that all the information is not always there in a timely fashion and perhaps this should be more transparent in the product's description.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Redglyph

[baltic_dragon]

Hey Fergrim,

 

First of all, thanks for your kind words regarding my work, I really appreciate it!

 

Now as to the merits of your post, a few comments from my side below.

 

At what point, exactly, should I expect to be made to spend another 50 on top of the 400 I've already spent in order to get ten minutes of instruction regarding how to operate this 70 dollar module?

 

My original plan indeed was to make the major part of the training for NTTR and then smaller basic part in Caucasus- to bring things closer to realism (I am a little nuts when it comes to realism;). But I guess I assumed that by now most of the people alrrady had Nevada. But I agree with you that when you buy a module you should get all the training missions for it without any extra costs, whether hidden or not. To be honest, porting missions between the maps is not that difficult, so what I’ll do is to build the same set of training missions for NTTR and Caucasus and then add a little extra for Georgia (like carrier landing etc).

 

There has to be a better way to communicate these things to the consumer. I can easily read about any requirements for a campaign (requires such and such map) but the modules don't inform us that we should expect no tutorial content for a module that is 100x more complex than a normal game.

 

In all honesty the module description says that you will get a tutorial and you will on two maps. But as I said above you are right, it should be the same for both maps. And it will be.

 

The community would much more easily be able to enjoy these maps perhaps if the maps didn't incur the same charge as the game itself.

 

I won’t comment on that, only say that it gives us so many good new possibilities! I love Caucasus map, I have visited Georgia 6 or 7 times already, been twice on a patrol to the ABL with EUMM and have spoken to Georgian generals and politicians about the local situation, politics etc. I work on the region closely in my day to day work, but still I am slowly running out of new ideas for more realistic scenarios for it (though there is one more campaign in the making for the A-10C for Caucasus map, it will be called “Crimson Dawn”). From mission builder point of view new theatres are very refreshing, not to mention being much more natural for a given module.

 

And I'm sorry for venting here, I'm not angry with anyone in particular and Dragon I love your work and I know this time around you made it for both caucus and nttr and I REALLY appreciate that, I can't tell you how much, I really do, thank you. And it's because I love your work that I just saw your words and got so overwhelmed. I'm all tapped out but I don't want to miss out.

 

Again, thanks for posting. You opened my eyes to some extent and made me change my mind. To be clear - RAZBAM guys are very much aware of all that and that was one of the first things they said, there has to be training for Caucasus.

 

Perhaps DCS should make it a requirement of their third party developers to include a functional tutorial in the caucuses, and a campaign if we want to be serious about quality and customer satisfaction, to avoid new people joining the community only to feel like there were large hidden fees.

 

I do agree on the training part. As for the campaign... As Sedlo says below, considering the amount of time needed to create a high quality product, adding it to the module is hardly feasible from the financial point of view both to the 3rd party devs and campaign creators. Having said that what I will do for Caucasus I am planning to build a series of complex missions that will be included for free and that will be MP ready to have something to for those that don’t own other maps.

 

Third party developers aren't making millions on this.... If they'r required to add full tutorials and full campaigns to every release then the $70.00 modules you are complaining about will quickly become $100 modules. I've written a (free) 10 mission campaign, and I can tell you I was amazed how much time I had to devote to it. It literally took me months of a few hours a night, 5-8 hours per weekend.

 

Indeed. It took me more than a year to complete the Red Flag campaign for M-2000C, with 16 missions, around 3000 voiceovers and a few times more triggers. Writing it, putting it together, testing each mission to death, updating etc. is no small task. And takes a lot of time. Training ones are easier as you usually only have the instructor of course, though.

 

It's standard practice for people to be informed when additional content is necessary. For example, see every single campaign mission for sale, they both indicate the map if an additional map is necessary and the vehicle module.

 

It's not a stretch and certainly not a douchily mockable suggestion to put forth that for future modules if the campaign / training content is only accessible via a paid map then that be something potential customers are informed of.

 

I agree. In this particular case, there was nothing official from RAZBAM apart from the info that the training will be included with the module. How it will be structures was (and still is) in the air, and thanks again for your post. It will mean more work for me but that will be because I want to have training in the NTTR. But there should be a full set of missions for Caucasus in the first place..

 

Edit: And just to add, it's great BD will do campaigns so often, but I'd hope we weren't dependent upon someone who's pretty much a volunteer in order to have quality content for our new modules.

 

I think that is a good thing about the DCS and its community- a lot of content is becoming real thanks to the volunteers! While it i true that I make the campaigns on top of my normal daily work (which can be quite demanding) and family life (expecting a third kid and first son... tomorrow :) I don’t really consider myself a volunteer anymore as I get money for it. But it wouldn’t be possible without great support of dozens of people from these forums who record lots of voiceovers. provide ideas, share their real life experience and take time to beta test the things I build, sometimes playing the same mission 10 times or more in a row.

 

And there are a few very skilled 3rd party campaign developers like Sabre, Apache, Bunyap, Ranger and others, some of whom I am sure will also contribute to the Harrier (in fact I heard about the plans to develop a full DLC campaign for Caucasus at some point).

[DowntownSIX]

Training has to be in Caucasus, you can't put training behind a pay wall (I have NTTR by the way, I'm not moaning).

 

Campaign, we need water for Tarawa action so Caucasus gets my vote.

 

Edit - OK, I see my point regarding training has been covered.

[RePhil]

I would be willing to pay for training mission but, if they give it away with the SU-25 why not when you spend 70.00 for a plane

[Sedlo]

I hope you're not, in a certain way, mocking my abilities to construct straw men. :-)

 

 

1. Honestly you must be confused or you just got off of work as a professional constructor of straw men.,
    
   
2. It's not a stretch and certainly not a douchily mockable suggestion to put forth that for future modules if the campaign / training content is only accessible via a paid map then that be something potential customers are informed of.
   

 

The DCS Harrier is in Early Access, it's listed at the top of the listing and all throughout the forums. It also says it's features will include Instant Action, Single, and Training Missions, and 2/3 of those are there right now.

 

You're right, it should be clearly stated that if certain features are advertised to be included, but require a different, paid, product to work, than that should be advertised. I've been following the forums for several years, and I know how it works. If I was to stumble on the game as a fresh newbie, it might be different. Perhaps we will see some changes.

 

I'm not a rich guy, I've cobbled together an 8 year old computer, added parts found at thrift stores in order to run this program half decently. The modules I have mostly bought at deep discounts during the sales they run every now and then. Honestly, I should be investing the little extra I have in other things, but I love this program so much.

[Redglyph]

Surely not an easy debate, but we have seen this one under other appearances.

 

The bottom line is, can you lower the quality to make it more affordable to anyone? And it's really what this is, do we have to fabricate unlikely scenarios and always stick to Caucasus just because a part of the users don't want to/can't buy a terrain which is more suited to a campaign/aircraft combination?

 

Of course it's understandable that some don't want to buy several terrains given the price, but that is a choice. If the only free terrain is Caucasus, and someone buys a WWII aircraft, does it make sense to force the accompanying training campaign (that we would already be lucky to get free) into that region that has very little to do with the aircraft in the first place? It lowers the credibility of the simulation, in spite of all the efforts to produce a high-fidelity aircraft model.

 

So if the aircraft you want doesn't fit the terrain you already have, perhaps you should expect to have to get another one. Or perhaps a good move would be allowing to select the first, free terrain that comes with DCS once a new user buys the first high-end aircraft (in which case the Caucasus would have to be bought back).

 

In any case, and at the risk of being controversial, I'm against the principle of aligning the quality to the lowest affordable criterion, it has never been a successful strategy. Or we may as well have lower-quality and more affordable modules, as in other and cheaper sims, but that wouldn't be DCS anymore.

[baltic_dragon]

Hey guys, thanks for all your comments and ideas. The decision whether campaign is included or not in the module is not mine to take, and as things stand it won’t be. Having said that, and taking into account all that was said before, here is what I plan:

 

A) Training. Will be for free, 20 core missions plus different variations (night, bad weather, crosswinds) so we will end up having around 40 in total. Let me repeat, included in the module and pretty comprehensive. Work is under way on these now. First in Caucasus, later ported to NTTR.

 

B) Campaign will be a DLC. I plan to build two, a shorter one (13 missions) for Caucasus and a longer one later for Persian Gulf. The Caucasus one qwill be set in the same background as another campaign I am slowly working on A-10C called the Crimson Dawn (more info on that in a few weeks). What’s more, first three missions of the Caucasus DLC will be includes for free as a teaser with the module. If you like it, you can buy the rest of the campaign, if you don’t - don’t :)

 

C) Finally I know another 3rd party campaign dev is working for something for Harrier in Caucasus, and knowing him it will be great - so good times ahead of us!

[Rudel_chw]

... The Caucasus one qwill be set in the same background as another campaign I am slowly working on A-10C called the Crimson Dawn (more info on that in a few weeks)...

 

Thanks a lot for keeping us informed about all this content development ... i’m specially Looking forward to your A-10C Campaign .... I tried multiplayer on the last few months and realized that I enjoy more the single player experience, as MP can be hard on a social level :(

 

Best regards

[sze5003]

Yup I'm eagerly waiting more for the A10c..love that jet despite all the other great modules. Ive been also checking the store for the m2000c red flag campaign but it looks like ED has not put it up yet. Looking forward to purchasing that and seeing how I will score.

[baltic_dragon]

If all goes well I should have a nice surprise for A-10C (separate from Crimson Dawn and Iron Flag) around December :) but for the moment I want to mostly focus on a good set of Harrier training missions.

[sze5003]

Good to know! Whatever you create I will support for sure. From what I've seen in the past it will be well worth the wait. While everyone will be busy with the hornet, that will help pass the time making the wait seem shorter. I've actually learned a ton just from your misisons and I think this is exactly what's needed to get new candidates up and running. With this study sim being a very small niche community, this stuff is well needed as it welcomes new pilots and will make people feel more at ease with learning.

 

After all we can have all the modules and terrains but without quality content, it can get boring for those that are not into using the misison editor.

[Redglyph]

A) Training. Will be for free, 20 core missions plus different variations (night, bad weather, crosswinds) so we will end up having around 40 in total. Let me repeat, included in the module and pretty comprehensive. Work is under way on these now. First in Caucasus, later ported to NTTR.

 

B) Campaign will be a DLC. I plan to build two, a shorter one (13 missions) for Caucasus and a longer one later for Persian Gulf. The Caucasus one qwill be set in the same background as another campaign I am slowly working on A-10C called the Crimson Dawn (more info on that in a few weeks). What’s more, first three missions of the Caucasus DLC will be includes for free as a teaser with the module. If you like it, you can buy the rest of the campaign, if you don’t - don’t :)

 

Wow, that's great! So many training missions for this awesome aircraft, plenty of joy! :)

I really don't know where you find the time to make all that ;)

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry to bump but is this campaign still planned? I've been DYING for something like this for the Harrier.

Edited January 21, 2019 by HoneyBadger

[baltic_dragon]

Hey, the campaign in Caucasus is progressing - slowly, as training is still taking quite a lot of time, but surely. The plan is to have first four missions free added to the module and for those who will like them, the story will continue in a DLC. Can’t give any dates yet though!

[HoneyBadger]

Hey, the campaign in Caucasus is progressing - slowly, as training is still taking quite a lot of time, but surely. The plan is to have first four missions free added to the module and for those who will like them, the story will continue in a DLC. Can’t give any dates yet though!

Can't wait to see it, Dragon. I enjoyed the shit out of your Enemy Within campaign for the A-10c and I seriously cannot wait for something like that with the Harrier. I assume every mission will require a VTOL landing?

[Harlikwin]

DLC for the Harrier sounds good. Have you considered a PG map DLC campaign?

[Blood-n-Guts]

Hey, the campaign in Caucasus is progressing - slowly, as training is still taking quite a lot of time, but surely. The plan is to have first four missions free added to the module and for those who will like them, the story will continue in a DLC. Can’t give any dates yet though!

 

 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[baltic_dragon]

Can't wait to see it, Dragon. I enjoyed the shit out of your Enemy Within campaign for the A-10c and I seriously cannot wait for something like that with the Harrier. I assume every mission will require a VTOL landing?

 

Not every mission, no. Some will be from the boat. Some from FOB. Some from normal airfields. You’ll have to be proficient in all things. Also for realism sake most missions will involve air refuelling, but fear not! We will branch the campaign in a way that you can choose whether you want to do the AAR in mission and then move on or finish it behind the tanker and then start next part again behind the tanker with your tanks full... :)

 

DLC for the Harrier sounds good. Have you considered a PG map DLC campaign?

 

Yes I have a very cool idea for one but have to postpone it a bit due to another one in PG which I will announce soon!

[sze5003]

Not every mission, no. Some will be from the boat. Some from FOB. Some from normal airfields. You’ll have to be proficient in all things. Also for realism sake most missions will involve air refuelling, but fear not! We will branch the campaign in a way that you can choose whether you want to do the AAR in mission and then move on or finish it behind the tanker and then start next part again behind the tanker with your tanks full... :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I have a very cool idea for one but have to postpone it a bit due to another one in PG which I will announce soon!

Sounds exciting despite my hated efforts to refuel in the harrier. I am guessing the "other" one in the PG would be the F18 since the tomcat isn't out yet :)

[baltic_dragon]

Sounds exciting despite my hated efforts to refuel in the harrier. I am guessing the "other" one in the PG would be the F18 since the tomcat isn't out yet :)

 

That is why you won’t have to refuel if you have trouble. You will probably just loose a few lines of dialogue, that’s all. And I plan to do a Harrier campaign in PG, just a bit later :)

[Harlikwin]

Not every mission, no. Some will be from the boat. Some from FOB. Some from normal airfields. You’ll have to be proficient in all things. Also for realism sake most missions will involve air refuelling, but fear not! We will branch the campaign in a way that you can choose whether you want to do the AAR in mission and then move on or finish it behind the tanker and then start next part again behind the tanker with your tanks full... :)

 

 

 

Yes I have a very cool idea for one but have to postpone it a bit due to another one in PG which I will announce soon!

 

Thats actually a great idea. Break up missions into parts, solves the save game problem alot of people have, and you can skip the AAR part if thats not your cup of tea.

[Robsongois]

News about the campaign?

[wowbagger]

Thats actually a great idea. Break up missions into parts, solves the save game problem alot of people have, and you can skip the AAR part if thats not your cup of tea.

 

 

This! This! SO MUCH THIS!

 

(sorry for yelling :blush:)

 

 

I'd love this for another reason. I am currently playing through EW3 and love every minute of it, however I had to start mission #2 three times, simply because real life wasn't kind enough to allow me the necessary amount of uninterrupted time to complete the mission start to finish. DCS doesn't have a save game feature, but splitting long missions up without sacrificing realism for those who desire it could be the next best thing. And it would let you replay any difficult bits over if necessary without having to invest the whole amount of mission time.

 

I guess it makes for a lot more work for the mission designer though. I was just thinking this morning that the production value of some of the campaigns are so high, Baltic's and Ranger79 in particular, it's pretty crazy that they cost so little. The amount of high quality game play time they provide is just staggering compared to some of the other things we pay for with DCS. I think I paid $9.99 for the A-10C and $7.99 for EW3. That's less than $20 USD for hours and hours of the highest quality simming. I'd be happy to pay $25-$30 for the campaigns alone, if it ensures we will continue to have such things in this game. When DCS gets a big update which breaks the missions/mods etc, I worry that the mission designers will get tired of it all and simply go do something else.