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Is the gun less lethal to armor lately?


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So, using same tactics and techniques I've always used, lately I'm finding that my gun just isn't killing tanks in the way it used it. I know, it probably happens to a lot of dudes...

 

Anyway, lining on on the rear quarter of the tank, diving in at about 20 degrees, engaging PAC-1 once my pipper is on the tank and firing at 0.7 to 0.3 miles before breaking away. Debriefing shows a surprisingly low hit rate and I'm wondering if it's me, or if the gunsight is doing weird things.

 

Instead of a one-pass kill, it takes three to pop the lid on a T-72.

 

Unfortunately, OBS is crashing on launch so I can't post a video at the moment. Is anyone else having issues with this?

 

EDIT: Results of my testing show that the debriefing file doesn't actually count individual bullet strikes, but probably groups thereof. Maybe you knew that...but the results seem inconsistent with my attack runs, so I'm curious what we can do until the DM gets updated. :)

 

Results video:


Edited by Zilch

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I've had the same experience. I found a dispersion mod somewhere here on the forums that mostly resolved it for me. It's an old tweak and will require some manual editing of files because the DCSW file structure has changed slightly since the mod was created.

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I've had the same experience. I found a dispersion mod somewhere here on the forums that mostly resolved it for me. It's an old tweak and will require some manual editing of files because the DCSW file structure has changed slightly since the mod was created.

 

Could you link that? I'm interested to try that out. Thanks! :)

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So, I guess my question isn't really about the number of rounds it takes to pop a tank, but the amount of time and/or passes it takes to kill one. It seems like 5 rounds hitting within a three second burst fired at 25 degrees dive angle from the high rear quarter would land more than 5 slugs.

 

That's an impression of mine. Of course if real-world data suggests that only 5 rounds would hit in those conditions, we're good to go and we just make more runs on target, if that's what it takes. However, I get the feeling that one-run kills against T-72's are a thing that probably happens.

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Wasn't the T-55 even capable withstand the cannon, but you got mobility kills and destroy engine or prisms... IIRC from USA testing videos....

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Wasn't the T-55 even capable withstand the cannon, but you got mobility kills and destroy engine or prisms... IIRC from USA testing videos....

 

I think so. In reality, hitting a tank with DU rounds has a non-zero chance of separating the treads or sprockets, bending or breaking the cannon, piercing the engine, or otherwise putting the tank out of the fight. Also, that dude who had his head sticking out of the hatch to man the 30 caliber machine gun to spray you with fire as you strafed the tank is *completely screwed.*

 

Unfortunately, right now in DCS, the only kill that counts is completely destroying the target. Otherwise, they plow ahead as if the tank was factory fresh. I assume this is at least part of the problem.


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I think so. In reality, hitting a tank with DU rounds has a non-zero chance of separating the treads or sprockets, bending or breaking the cannon, piercing the engine, or otherwise putting the tank out of the fight. Also, that dude who had his head sticking out of the hatch to man the 30 caliber machine gun to spray you with fire as you strafed the tank is *completely screwed.*

 

Unfortunately, right now in DCS, the only kill that counts is completely destroying the target. Otherwise, they plow ahead as if the tank was factory fresh. I assume this is at least part of the problem.

Well, some day (in two weeks) we get modeled ground units so we get mobility kills and such...

Will make a huge difference when a ground units don't so easily get knocked out....

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I posted a recap about the damage model recently in the WWII section HERE.

 

Some answers:

- yes, we have few men from old Il-2 team ))

- old P-51B could be there, but later;

- new DM has no affect on cockpit;

- bombers are in production as an AI planes (for the moment);

- LN mentioned their plans by themselves, better to ask them directly;

- DM is a brand new system which could be applied to any unit in the game.

 

Hope once the merge is out of the way this will be applied to all ground units at some stage.

 

I guess the WWII aircraft will be done very soon, as this would be a priority to get done with Normandy and is even more needed to get a better experience.

 

It would be good to quickly stop advancing tanks by blowing off a few of their tracks.

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Here are my results:

 

 

TacView tells all. Every single gun run I made in that first video made good strikes and overall, I had a 77% hit rate. The average T-72 seems to take around 300-400 bullet strikes to kill.

 

Apparently, the debrief screen is NOT a count of actual "hits" or number of projectiles that strike the target. Likely, it groups them together. Don't think that "22 hits" in the debrief screen means that you only hit with 22 slugs in your 300-round burst...you probably hit with about 250 in reality.

 

Also, my debrief file shows a three-second burst with no hits whatsoever. This did not happen, every attack I made hit with a high number of rounds. Again, the debrief screen probably groups projectiles together, and that run didn't have enough hits to register as a group...just a hypothesis.

 

So, if you're looking at that DCS debrief screen and thinking, "Man, I suck, I only hit with 60 slugs out of 1150!" Don't feel bad! You're probably hitting with more like 900 or more actual projectiles.

 

So, with hit rates at about 80% anyway, I'm not sure dispersion mods are the actual answer, since dispersion is probably pretty close to what we want, anyway? Just an idea.

 

Now...since ED is working on the damage model, the question becomes, "How to work with what we have to get one-run kills?" I'm guessing, start firing earlier.


Edited by Zilch

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Here are my results:

TacView tells all. Every single gun run I made in that first video made good strikes and overall, I had a 77% hit rate. The average T-72 seems to take around 300-400 bullet strikes to kill.

 

I will say, from going through Operation Piercing Fury, that while we are talking about tanks I swear that I had a bunch of gun rounds hit an infantry unit and he was not dying... its possible this issue is not limited to tanks. Just my two cents.

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Here are my results:

 

 

TacView tells all. Every single gun run I made in that first video made good strikes and overall, I had a 77% hit rate. The average T-72 seems to take around 300-400 bullet strikes to kill.

 

Apparently, the debrief screen is NOT a count of actual "hits" or number of projectiles that strike the target. Likely, it groups them together. Don't think that "22 hits" in the debrief screen means that you only hit with 22 slugs in your 300-round burst...you probably hit with about 250 in reality.

 

Also, my debrief file shows a three-second burst with no hits whatsoever. This did not happen, every attack I made hit with a high number of rounds. Again, the debrief screen probably groups projectiles together, and that run didn't have enough hits to register as a group...just a hypothesis.

 

So, if you're looking at that DCS debrief screen and thinking, "Man, I suck, I only hit with 60 slugs out of 1150!" Don't feel bad! You're probably hitting with more like 900 or more actual projectiles.

 

So, with hit rates at about 80% anyway, I'm not sure dispersion mods are the actual answer, since dispersion is probably pretty close to what we want, anyway? Just an idea.

 

Now...since ED is working on the damage model, the question becomes, "How to work with what we have to get one-run kills?" I'm guessing, start firing earlier.

 

 

I'm no expert, I have only been really into this sim for less than a year, but I think the problem is that your dive is too shallow. To take out tanks, you need like -35 degrees or less is better, -45 degree pitch is the best i think. I have done this before because I too was having a really tough time killing tanks. I set up a mission like you did exactly, and i practice the pop up maneuver which I think you're probably familiar with.

 

When the tank is 45 degree on either the port or starboard side of the nose, pop your pitch up to +35 degrees ( thrust 100%) , when you reach 35 or so invert to the target pull stick gently and pull throttle to lowest , once you're about -35 degrees roll back, you should be hopefully around 40 deg dive, then track and shoot when you're about .6 nm or less slant. I think its better to attack the top than sides, i think you get more ricochets if you attack at too shallow of an angle. At least that's what Tacview has shown to me.


Edited by Cacique
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Well, as far as I can find, it can only pierce about 100mm of RHA. So, anything more than a top down attack on a tank...

 

I would think, head / side on, its only good for taking out tracks, optics, secondary guns, etc. Maybe a lucky hit on the main gun.

 

Good strategy would be a dive bomb on the top of the tank looking to pierce the top armor and the unprotected engine vents.


Edited by 3WA
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Well, as far as I can find, it can only pierce about 100mm of RHA. So, anything more than a top down attack on a tank...

 

I would think, head / side on, its only good for taking out tracks, optics, secondary guns, etc. Maybe a lucky hit on the main gun.

 

Good strategy would be a dive bomb on the top of the tank looking to pierce the top armor and the unprotected engine vents.

 

In reality, yes, that's ideal, but I don't think that the damage model in DCS for ground vehicles is sophisticated enough for that kind of effect until the new system comes out.

 

Steeper dives and firing close-in seem to help though. I'm curious if the dive angle affects projectile speed enough to give it s boost, because according to my tests, dispersion isn't affected enough by slant angle (flashlight effect) to reduce hit rate when attacking from shallow dives. In these dives at 30 degrees, I'm still hitting with 200 to 400 rounds with about 80 to 90 percent of my shots landing.

 

It seems that in DCS, projectile speed and energy matter more than number of hits.

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I'm no expert, I have only been really into this sim for less than a year, but I think the problem is that your dive is too shallow. To take out tanks, you need like -35 degrees or less is better, -45 degree pitch is the best i think. I have done this before because I too was having a really tough time killing tanks. I set up a mission like you did exactly, and i practice the pop up maneuver which I think you're probably familiar with.

 

When the tank is 45 degree on either the port or starboard side of the nose, pop your pitch up to +35 degrees ( thrust 100%) , when you reach 35 or so invert to the target pull stick gently and pull throttle to lowest , once you're about -35 degrees roll back, you should be hopefully around 40 deg dive, then track and shoot when you're about .6 nm or less slant. I think its better to attack the top than sides, i think you get more ricochets if you attack at too shallow of an angle. At least that's what Tacview has shown to me.

 

That last tacview run on the 1st tank showed very few ricochets. I'm wondering if this behavior is considered in the game and if that last 150 or so hits did more damage than the first runs with significant numbers of ricochets. Anyone want to test the low vs high dive angle and look at number of rounds per kill differentiated by subjective accounting of number of ricochets?

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Here's a good article

Can an A-10 Warthog airplane take down an advanced Russian tank

 

Preview from the article about a documented account which is interesting....

 

"Armor-piercing rounds from an enemy 30mm gun (possibly from an Iraqi army BMP-2) disabled one Abrams tank after hitting it in the rear of the hull, near the engine exhaust grilles - a mobility kill. Two Abrams tanks were lost in friendly-fire incidents during the opening stages of Operation Iraqi Freedom. In one incident, an army Bradley infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) fired a number of 25mm armor-piercing DU projectiles at the rear engine grilles of an Abrams tank and destroyed its gas turbine engine."

 

"There you go. Documented accounts of modern main battle tanks being "taken out" by a lowly 25mm round. If they can do it, the GAU-8 can do it."

 

It would be nice to have a little more damage modeling at some point to simulate these.

M-kill - A mobility kill

F-kill - A firepower kill

K-kill - Catastrophic kill

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It would be nice to have a little more damage modeling at some point to simulate these.

M-kill - A mobility kill

F-kill - A firepower kill

K-kill - Catastrophic kill

 

Author was corrected in the comments below the article (asking why Catastrophic kill was abbreviated to K-kill instead of C-kill):

 

  • Mobility kill (MK) - damage tracks or power pack of the tank so that it cannot move.
  • Firepower kill (FK) - damage gun tube or aiming scope/sensors so the gun becomes combat ineffective.
  • Crew kill (CK) - Kill or injure crew inside the tank to render the tank combat ineffective. The tank may still be mechanically functional, but crews are incapacitated.
  • Catastrophic kill (KK) - Basically the tank blows up. Crew and machine both taken out.

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IRL the A10 cant take out a t72 on standart 10 degree gun runs. There s no way to penetrate the armor at this angle.

 

Maybe it can penetrate if it dives at 50+ degrees but then it is pretty suicidal in a warthog.

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IRL the A10 cant take out a t72 on standart 10 degree gun runs. There s no way to penetrate the armor at this angle.

 

Maybe it can penetrate if it dives at 50+ degrees but then it is pretty suicidal in a warthog.

 

IRL, you don't need to penetrate the armor to knock the thing out of action. As mentioned above with the M-1 getting hit in the vents, the are softer parts that don't have that full armor protection, treads and other moving parts to get separated or jammed up, and the main gun that, if bent or dented, will effectively stop the tank from doing tank-like things. Similarly, even if it's a head-on rounds-vs-armor situation (which it would not likely be,) the crew inside is going to have a major damn bad day, especially if, as we have in DCS, there's a dude with his top half sticking out of the open hatch with his hands on the swivel-mounted machine gun shooting back at you. A strafing run that makes contact with that guy is certainly going to unspeakable things to his person, compounded by the chance of a round flying down through the hatch he was sticking out of and doing horrible things to the inside of the vehicle.

 

As with personal armor, yes, vehicle armor may save your life, but that doesn't mean you're gonna be in the best of shape after getting shot while wearing it. You are more likely to live, but that doesn't mean you're still in the fight, and certainly not at 100% of your ability.

 

However, again, real life is one thing, DCS is similar in a lot of ways, but still an entirely different beast. In DCS, we have none of these compounding effects with AI units, so it's a basic health bar situation. What I'm trying to do is work with the current damage model to facilitate one-pass kills against DCS T-72's.

 

So far, 35+ dive angles starting at 0.6 miles down to 0.3 seem to work decently, but then there's that dude out of the hatch firing his swivel gun at you to contend with when you get that close, along with all of his buddies taking potshots.

 

That last tacview run on the 1st tank showed very few ricochets. I'm wondering if this behavior is considered in the game and if that last 150 or so hits did more damage than the first runs with significant numbers of ricochets. Anyone want to test the low vs high dive angle and look at number of rounds per kill differentiated by subjective accounting of number of ricochets?

 

That's actually an excellent idea! I hadn't considered the effect of ricochets in DCS. I had assumed they were merely cosmetic, but now that you mention it I did see once in tacview a hit by 30mm that had bounced off of something else.

 

If these ricochets are part of the damage dealing picture, that's something we can work with to improve our techniques. I hope I can get some time to test this out!

 

EDIT: I'm sure you've seen this before, but the A-10 Coloring Book discusses what happens when tanks get hit by the GAU-8. Bending or piercing the cannon, bouncing rounds from the ground up under the tank, and blowing treads off are apparently legit methods by attacking the sides of the tank at 3 degree dive angles. However, this is an aside to the actual topic, which is blowing them up in DCS. :) Just thought you'd enjoy it: https://warisboring.com/cold-war-coloring-book-taught-a-10-pilots-to-kill-soviet-tanks-a26385113bf0#.qjbx5umju


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