Jump to content

Red Flag Rumble - Mig21 vs F5


104th_Maverick
 Share

Recommended Posts

Today I was testing the model enlargement vs a F-5, I dont know if I'm getting older or what :D, but using OFF and SMALL I see nothing until the F-5 was about 300 meters or less from my aircraft, in MEDIUM was better visible, not much difference, maybe at 800 meters, the most realistic was the LARGE model seriously.

 

All the R-3R tests were a waste of ammo, I only could kill him with the R-13M1


Edited by JunMcKill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 206
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I hear you, and I trust your experience in the MiG over mine - I haven't mastered it yet, so I don't disagree with any points you are making, except for the maneuverability argument. The F5 is not inherently more maneuverable than the MiG. It may win in instantaneous turn and low speed scissors, but that's it. The MiG can out-climb, out-accelerate, and hold a faster sustained turn. Again, I'm not trying to make this into some big thing - the performance is very close, just like the missile capabilities are very close (radar or not). Just quit pretending like the MiGs have nothing going for them, including 6 missiles per aircraft instead of 2. I think the MiGs have an advantage in a head to head when the aircraft know where each other are. The F-5s SA advantage is mitigated with imposters, but that's something that's going to be put in - I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with whatever adjustments they want to make for either side. I'd just be happy to fly in this thing. But I do think it's fair to talk about our ideas on the balance of such a scenario.

 

As stated, I am fine with no restrictions, and the better pilots will win, regardless of the ruleset, which is why any team that gets me will get a handicap. I'm cool with whatever, but I would prefer rear-aspect missiles and guns only, or just guns only. To me, it makes the fight more interesting, but for all of you complaining about realism, I guess mass F-5 vs MiG-21 battles in the desert with imposters is the height of realism. Okay...

 

And Mav, please put me on the F-5 team if I haven't outstayed my welcome. I'm not trying to start anything, just responding to your question earlier and continuing the convo with people who are so inclined. I'll shut up whenever.

 

Application:

 

Dino Might

F-5

Lone wolf

USA

 

 

First of all. Where did you guys take that "REALISM" thing? I'm not complaining about REALISM here. If we would talk about realism I would suggest to redo WHOLE event. But I always say your house your rules. This event aimed at other things which I also understand. I'm questioning only logic behind restrictions.

 

About realism - I'm actually preparing my own event testing name "3rd gen league" for a three months already (when I have free time from my job) where I would like to see all of you guys, preparation would go faster if I had some testing teams 3 to 5 pilots!

 

I totally agree about limitating amount of missiles per plane. And I was the one actually who proposed to restrict KH-66 Grom to Mav on facebook..

 

" I think the MiGs have an advantage in a head to head when the aircraft know where each other are." did you see video I made or tacview? Yes radar missile will not react to flares but at the same time MiG needs to keep lock and F-5 can maneuver as he wants after launching his missiles.

 

Let's put all aside, answer only on one question why R3R should be banned if AIM-9P5 is all aspect and is not banned? Keep in mind that restriction 2 missiles per aircraft will stand..

AKA LazzySeal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's put all aside, answer only on one question why R3R should be banned if AIM-9P5 is all aspect and is not banned? Keep in mind that restriction 2 missiles per aircraft will stand..

 

 

When I came up with the idea for this event I sat down with one our Squadron members who knows both aircraft much better than I do and discussed weapon load outs, as you know I am no expert in either the F5E or the Mig21.

I told him that I wanted to create a BFM event that was as balanced as possible and asked his input on what missiles we should use and we then settled on heaters only.

 

After reading through all your comments on Facebook you correctly pointed out that I do not know all the nuances of the missiles of both aircraft.

The simple truth is I was under the impression that the Aim9P5 was a rear aspect missile only, after watching your video I am now better informed and happy to be corrected.... this is the only reason the missile was left out, there is no other agenda.

 

We will add the R3R for you guys and stick with a limitation on the number of missiles allowed to be carried.

 

I hope there is no more confusion :)

 

 

Edit: Also Lazy while we are sorting out the weapons, can you make any suggestions for Air to Ground weapon restrictions for the Mig21? What I intended was for all targets to be engaged by rockets except Tanks that could only be killed by bombs, because as far as I know the F5 doesn't have any rockets powerful enough to kill tanks.... what do you think?


Edited by [Maverick]

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;3066082']When I came up with the idea for this event I sat down with one our Squadron members who knows both aircraft much better than I do and discussed weapon load outs, as you know I am no expert in either the F5E or the Mig21.

I told him that I wanted to create a BFM event that was as balanced as possible and asked his input on what missiles we should use and we then settled on heaters only.

 

After reading through all your comments on Facebook you correctly pointed out that I do not know all the nuances of the missiles of both aircraft.

The simple truth is I was under the impression that the Aim9P5 was a rear aspect missile only, after watching your video I am now better informed and happy to be corrected.... this is the only reason the missile was left out, there is no other agenda.

 

We will add the R3R for you guys and stick with a limitation on the number of missiles allowed to be carried.

 

I hope there is no more confusion :)

 

 

Edit: Also Lazy while we are sorting out the weapons, can you make any suggestions for Air to Ground weapon restrictions for the Mig21? What I intended was for all targets to be engaged by rockets except Tanks that could only be killed by bombs, because as far as I know the F5 doesn't have any rockets powerful enough to kill tanks.... what do you think?

 

Sure, I will do more tests regarding small rockets. But I can say right now that you can restrict S-24 and Kh-66 Grom for MiG-21 right away.

 

On other weapons I will do checks. Since you never know what can be bugged, as I recently found out that R-13M missile for MiG-21 is broken again in stable DCS version and has range of 2 km :doh:

AKA LazzySeal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will there be LotAtc option available?

Huh! That would be great! The event turns to serious game...

 

PS Ready to play as ATC ;)

=WRAG=345

i7-7700K @ 4,6 GHz; DDR4 32Gb RAM (+32Gb swap); Radeon RX 6800 16Gb; 3840x2160; Win10-64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;3066082'] Also Lazy while we are sorting out the weapons' date=' can you make any suggestions for Air to Ground weapon restrictions for the Mig21? What I intended was for all targets to be engaged by rockets except Tanks that could only be killed by [b']bombs[/b], because as far as I know the F5 doesn't have any rockets powerful enough to kill tanks.... what do you think?

 

If you're looking for only bombs able to kill tanks then restrict S-24s, Kh-66 and of course the nukes should probably be removed.

 

I'm not indenting to be mean spirited with any questions or doubts about the rules, I hope it's not come across like that. :thumbup:

/да бойз/

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;3065857']Because its a BFM COMPETITION, read the damn event description before you go on some random rant next time!

 

 

 

You're more than welcome to attend mate, I will sign you up.

 

Guys this event was set up for people to have FUN... it's not designed for the Realism warriors to take it super seriously! There are no prizes, no awards and no rankings... this is purely about spreading our PvP events to other aircraft and having fun in the process.

 

We will consider adding the R-3R missile in as we do not want to be perceived as favouring one aircraft over another.... as I said, this event is about having fun, which is why it's important to us that it is as balanced as possible, and I'm sorry but with the F-5 only being able to carry two missiles I totally disagree that it's fine for us to allow the Mig21 to go up with eight!

 

Thanks Mav, but anyway, the R-3R is a waste, few pilots can achieve a kill with it in the Fishbed vs Tiger server, mostly against inexpert F-5 pilots

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;3066176']Not for this round however we are planning to do a test with Combined Arms as GCI before the event to see if that works.

This could work... I've tested it in the past. However there is a bug that when you spawn as jtac, etc. you need to reselect the slot, to show opposition, else you see only friendly units...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all. Where did you guys take that "REALISM" thing? I'm not complaining about REALISM here. If we would talk about realism I would suggest to redo WHOLE event. But I always say your house your rules. This event aimed at other things which I also understand. I'm questioning only logic behind restrictions.

 

About realism - I'm actually preparing my own event testing name "3rd gen league" for a three months already (when I have free time from my job) where I would like to see all of you guys, preparation would go faster if I had some testing teams 3 to 5 pilots!

 

I totally agree about limitating amount of missiles per plane. And I was the one actually who proposed to restrict KH-66 Grom to Mav on facebook..

 

" I think the MiGs have an advantage in a head to head when the aircraft know where each other are." did you see video I made or tacview? Yes radar missile will not react to flares but at the same time MiG needs to keep lock and F-5 can maneuver as he wants after launching his missiles.

 

Let's put all aside, answer only on one question why R3R should be banned if AIM-9P5 is all aspect and is not banned? Keep in mind that restriction 2 missiles per aircraft will stand..

 

I think we're both looking at different versions of what we perceive to be "The" proposed setup. I think with 2 missiles per plane restriction, it would be too much to restrict R3R. I, personally, wanted rear-aspect only or guns only (so no P-5 either). But, with only two missiles per plane, the advantage from the R3R is dramatically countered, because carrying those prevents the MiGs from carrying IR missiles (unless you go 1 and 1 on non-symmetric rail loads). I think if R3R is restricted, then MiGs should get to carry more than 2 missiles. The R-60M and R13M1 are (even together) not quite as good as the P-5 (though R13M1 should outrange it), so make up for that with more missiles.

 

I understand that under optimal conditions the P-5 has good range, but under optimal conditions, the R3R has a longer range. As for who can actually achieve guidance lock faster and make a good shot, I don't know. I suspect I'd be better doing that with the F-5 and some others would be better doing it with the MiG.

 

For numbers on ranges, I'm pulling from past discussions like this one, with a limited amount of personal experience:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=138276

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mav,

Please let me make clear that I really appreciate you guys hosting this, whatever ruleset/aircraft/map/server we use. These are awesome events, and it's a lot of work to organize these sorts of things. Please don't take any of our discussion as criticism of you or your crew. We'll bicker and banter a bit, but I hope that I speak for all of us when I say we are definitely excited for this, and we're glad you're putting it on.

 

Well said....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we're both looking at different versions of what we perceive to be "The" proposed setup. I think with 2 missiles per plane restriction, it would be too much to restrict R3R. I, personally, wanted rear-aspect only or guns only (so no P-5 either). But, with only two missiles per plane, the advantage from the R3R is dramatically countered, because carrying those prevents the MiGs from carrying IR missiles (unless you go 1 and 1 on non-symmetric rail loads). I think if R3R is restricted, then MiGs should get to carry more than 2 missiles. The R-60M and R13M1 are (even together) not quite as good as the P-5 (though R13M1 should outrange it), so make up for that with more missiles.

 

I understand that under optimal conditions the P-5 has good range, but under optimal conditions, the R3R has a longer range. As for who can actually achieve guidance lock faster and make a good shot, I don't know. I suspect I'd be better doing that with the F-5 and some others would be better doing it with the MiG.

 

For numbers on ranges, I'm pulling from past discussions like this one, with a limited amount of personal experience:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=138276

 

I tested R-13 today... its broken again and has seeker and range from R-55 (Track from 2 KM rear aspect)...

 

Otherwise I would suggest to make match with R-13M vs AIM9-P (not P5).. But since R-13 is broken again and we don't know when they can copy CORRECT files from openBeta to stable we stuck with what we have now.

AKA LazzySeal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

;3066082']

 

Edit: Also Lazy while we are sorting out the weapons, can you make any suggestions for Air to Ground weapon restrictions for the Mig21? What I intended was for all targets to be engaged by rockets except Tanks that could only be killed by bombs, because as far as I know the F5 doesn't have any rockets powerful enough to kill tanks.... what do you think?

 

So currently we have this:

 

T-55s Can be killed with MiG-21 S-5 rockets (57 mm), BUT in order to do that one should put something like 8 rokets straight into tank chassis preferrably side aspect, its not easy to do in clean environment and will be harder with enemy planes interfering with this..

 

F-5 has FFAR HEAT rockets its 70 mm , technically they should kill T-55 aswell but I'm having a hard time to put them right into tank chassis.

 

So both planes can technically kill T-55 tanks with their rockets but it will demand snipe shots from pilots.

 

In that case I see two options:

 

1) leave T-55 tanks, it is not easy at all to kill them with rockets, but possible

 

2) Replace T-55 with T-72 MBT, BUT while T-72 is practically rocket proof, at the same time T-72 have more defence from bombs, it will require snipe bombing, which is not that easy to do on both planes because:

mig-21) people say it has CCIP but it is not a CCIP at all, it is so inaccurate so it is giving you only slight idea where bomb will hit. Bombing in MiG-21 is better because at least some gyro help but that help is almost useless without flight discipline, also MiG-21 doesn't have centerline bomb slot.

 

F-5) while F-5 doesn't have gyro help for bombing, it can carry more bombs, and also it has snake eyes bombs, which can be mounted by 5 pieces in centerline slot and just dispensed riple above target which is greatly increase chanses on hit because it is 5 bombs and they have aerodynamic brake which makes pilot pickle calculations easier

 

If guys can do some tryouts for bombing in both planes and post statistics here it will help to do educational decision


Edited by P61

AKA LazzySeal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So currently we have this:

 

T-55s Can be killed with MiG-21 S-5 rockets (57 mm), BUT in order to do that one should put something like 8 rokets straight into tank chassis preferrably side aspect, its not easy to do in clean environment and will be harder with enemy planes interfering with this..

 

F-5 has FFAR HEAT rockets its 70 mm , technically they should kill T-55 aswell but I'm having a hard time to put them right into tank chassis.

 

So both planes can technically kill T-55 tanks with their rockets but it will demand snipe shots from pilots.

 

In that case I see two options:

 

1) leave T-55 tanks, it is not easy at all to kill them with rockets, but possible

 

2) Replace T-55 with T-72 MBT, BUT while T-72 is practically rocket proof, at the same time T-72 have more defence from bombs, it will require snipe bombing, which is not that easy to do on both planes because:

mig-21) people say it has CCIP but it is not a CCIP at all, it is so inaccurate so it is giving you only slight idea where bomb will hit. Bombing in MiG-21 is better because at least some gyro help but that help is almost useless without flight discipline, also MiG-21 doesn't have centerline bomb slot.

 

F-5) while F-5 doesn't have gyro help for bombing, it can carry more bombs, and also it has snake eyes bombs, which can be mounted by 5 pieces in centerline slot and just dispensed riple above target which is greatly increase chanses on hit because it is 5 bombs and they have aerodynamic brake which makes pilot pickle calculations easier

 

If guys can do some tryouts for bombing in both planes and post statistics here it will help to do educational decision

 

 

Sounds like fun to me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We did more tests with my mate between R-13M and AIM-9P5, looks like my conclusion that R-13M broken again was premature. Although looks like AIM-9P5 has ~ 1KM more range and it gives tone far before R-13 does.. In the end they could be comparable, we will do more tests..

AKA LazzySeal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We did more tests with my mate between R-13M and AIM-9P5, looks like my conclusion that R-13M broken again was premature. Although looks like AIM-9P5 has ~ 1KM more range and it gives tone far before R-13 does.. In the end they could be comparable, we will do more tests..

 

Thanks for running these tests. I appreciate the perspective from both sides. I'm really hoping the MiG doesn't end up with bugged missiles that won't work. I had plenty of problems with the R60Ms on the Tiger v Fishbed server a few weeks back, and that's just flat out frustrating.

 

What's the performance of the R13M1 vs. the R13M?

 

I'll see if I can get some bombing tests done with the F5 this weekend. Will try both standard and drag versions vs. T55s and T72s.

 

I haven't even touched the cluster munitions, but I assume they're like the SU-25T dispensers (totally useless)? If I have time, I'll give those a run as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...