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Tips for handling BVR engagements


crudboy12
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I find that when fighting FC3 jets, I tend to be eliminated before the merge, and since they have longer ranges I find myself at a disadvantage. Do you have any tips? (apart from firing one 530 early to make them panic and break)

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Tactics differ on the specifics. But my main go to tactics generally are:

 

- Gain momentum by gaining altitude that you can exchange for speed when you need it ,

- Notch (90 degrees aspect on your bandit)while popping chaff (on a launch) and doing S turns while closing the distance

- Stay low and use the terrain. Fly with your radar standby (not emitting) (or only on for short bursts) and use your RWR to get track your target until you (think you) are close enough. Only then engage it.

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Just to add a few points to what CrashO said about radar management. Using the RWR to track a potential target is a double edged sword. Remember, if you are getting a RWR return, that particular plane is illuminating you, and if you are close enough he will pick you up on his radar.

 

I would say this, if you know where the enemy planes are (usually at some sort of mission critical point, or bullseye) try to get there without picking up contacts on your RWR. When "relatively" close, use your radar to find and track your targets in TWS mode. Don't STT lock until you are sure you are going to FIRE! A TWS lock doesn't alert the enemy he is locked!

 

Truth is against good players who know what they are doing in the big jets (F15C, Su27) you won't have much chance unless you get a little bit lucky or you manage to catch them off guard. So try to get behind them as much as possible. Don't be afraid to run. Most of the time that I get shot down now, it's my own fault. I bring down one enemy, then find myself without SA deep in hostile territory and instead of turning tail and running, I try and find more enemies.

 

Starting up, flying directly towards bullseye is a recipe for getting shot down. Get creative. Try some teamwork, try and flank the enemy if you can. Most importantly stick with it.

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Fly fast, at least M0.9.

 

When you are approaching enemy firing range try the snake:

- turn away by 50° to keep the target on radar and reverse turns every 5" to 10" (the close the shorter the time to reverse the turns). But don't pull too hard on the stick, keep your speed.

At high altitude start the snake at 30Nm. But they will probably shoot at closer range to have good Pk.

- Shoot when you are at firing range (from 10Nm at low altitude to 20 Nm at high altitude for Super 530D). If the target try to "support" his missile you have good chances to hit.

- When you shoot crank (turn away by 50° again) and dive to keep the target above horizon.

- If your RWR detect firing against you reverse the turn (wait to see the "M" if it's Fox 3).

- If there is a new Fox 3 reverse the turn again.

At the end of Super 530D time of flight, target kill, missed or missile lost = PUMP (turn by 180°) and full throttle for 1mn at least.

 

Of course, if there are the same type of fighters on both sides, keeping the situational awareness is more complicated :music_whistling:

 

Recommit:

- if you pump by turning right, recommit by the left.

- recommit in 2 times: 90° to notch, watch RWR, then 90° (or more) to recommit or run again...

- watch out for flares or missile departure smoke, switch radar to SVI (HUD search) and put those smokes in the HUD, if you lock something make IFF check, if no answer shoot the 2nd Super 530D and crank again.

 

This is the basic in 1 Vs 1.

 

The enemy may have longer range missiles (AIM-120, R-27ER). But if they shoot at long range the snake will exhaust their missile's energy as they try to lead your flight path. But you must keep your speed.


Edited by jojo
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I would say fly faster than M0.9. Go as fast as you possibly can, the more speed (and altitude) the more energy (range) your missile has. You're still being poked by the M2000's relatively short radar lock range. Still, you can beat their long missiles and once you are in a turn fight with them you have the upper hand in your smaller, faster and more maneuverable plane (if you manage your energy)

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Doesn't it usually break the lock and waste the s530 ?

 

No, the STT lock is good. You have +/-60° both in azimuth and elevation.

The lock line will flash at 55° to alert you that you are close to the limit.

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I would use the radar all the time (acitve/emitting). It's your eye. The RWR is your ear. Would you fight with closed eyes by using your ears only? :music_whistling:

 

I don't think so. JoJo gave you some good tipps. Be fast, but not to fast. Mach 0.9 is a good speed approaching your target. Because you are carrying no active radar missiles, stay always below your target. But to to low. You don't need two enemies - the ground and your target. If you use a high-in tactic, like most F-15 jockeys, your missile is lost when your target is notching you. So if you shoot while below his altitude, he has to get lower than you.

 

Not locking someone with STT, doesn't mean, that you don't want to get him. Good players know, that every emitting radar (when your use your TWS mode) is a potentially threat. Equal, if he's locking you in STT or not.

 

 

kind regards,

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Staying below your enemy has a couple downsides anyone should be aware of:

 

It reduces the range of the s530.

It exposes you to IR sams (rarely seen in multiplayer)

It reduces the chance of successful egress if something goes unexpectedly wrong.

 

There are times to be below your target with the s530, and there are times to stay higher.

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You can close in level, eventually dash to M1.2 for firing and then crank in dive (to keep target above horizon), airbrake out to slow down to M0.9 (slow down closure rate during the crank).

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It reduces the chance of successful egress if something goes unexpectedly wrong.

You can turn cold/ bugout with a break with descending as well. If I pull 6gs in a split-s or in a break, doesn't matter. The higher speed resulting in a regular split-s is reduced with higher gs.

 

You can close in level, eventually dash to M1.2 for firing and then crank in dive (to keep target above horizon), airbrake out to slow down to M0.9 (slow down closure rate during the crank).

If I know there is a M-2000C and I get the spike, I break to the notch and re-commit 3 seconds later. The missile is gone. No time to crank for the other one. If he's below me, this doesn't work. We tried this a few times in our squadron. But the M-2000C is a delta wing and doesn't loose speed in a normal dive. You can observe this with the Eurofighter, as well. If they are to fast before landing, they shackle a few times to loose energy. The airbrake just holds the speed, while descending. It only reduces the speed, which would increase with the descend in the crank. We never get below Mach 0.95 with 45° dive and airbrakes out.

 

Lower altitude means less range. This could be compensate with a higher speed.


Edited by VTJG17_Fire

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I find that when fighting FC3 jets, I tend to be eliminated before the merge, and since they have longer ranges I find myself at a disadvantage. Do you have any tips? (apart from firing one 530 early to make them panic and break)

 

Just do a barrel rolling while speeding toward and you will beat ever missile shot at you and you can merge.

 

Your problem is that you don't either chaff or you fly straight.

 

You can just change a angle continually and missiles just don't get to you.


Edited by Fri13
Module > missile

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I've been trying to learn BVR in the Mirage against the AI SU-27 ... and I lose pretty much every time. I've found that getting out an early missile helps a great deal, even if it's a bit long ranged it forces them to turn. If you don't then you're on the defensive and they're just going to spam you with missiles.

 

I've also found eyes out the cockpit helps *massively*. You can do all the BVR stuff basically looking 95% outside. Otherwise when the merge comes I'm just flapping about wondering where they are ... death follows soon after.

 

The early missiles are actually pretty easy to dodge and I can usually manage to force a merge now, but generally get splashed by those off-boresight missile shots. You can dodge a few, but they fire so many that eventually one gets you.

 

I'm fairly new to modern jets (although I'm an experienced WWII pilot), but it certainly feels as if the Su-27 is holding most of the cards in this situation.

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I've been trying to learn BVR in the Mirage against the AI SU-27 ... and I lose pretty much every time. I've found that getting out an early missile helps a great deal, even if it's a bit long ranged it forces them to turn. If you don't then you're on the defensive and they're just going to spam you with missiles.

 

I've also found eyes out the cockpit helps *massively*. You can do all the BVR stuff basically looking 95% outside. Otherwise when the merge comes I'm just flapping about wondering where they are ... death follows soon after.

 

The early missiles are actually pretty easy to dodge and I can usually manage to force a merge now, but generally get splashed by those off-boresight missile shots. You can dodge a few, but they fire so many that eventually one gets you.

 

I'm fairly new to modern jets (although I'm an experienced WWII pilot), but it certainly feels as if the Su-27 is holding most of the cards in this situation.

 

Try against a MIG-29A it is closest aircraft from the 2000 on the red side, it will be a bit easier.

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I've been trying to learn BVR in the Mirage against the AI SU-27 ... and I lose pretty much every time. I've found that getting out an early missile helps a great deal, even if it's a bit long ranged it forces them to turn. If you don't then you're on the defensive and they're just going to spam you with missiles.

 

I've also found eyes out the cockpit helps *massively*. You can do all the BVR stuff basically looking 95% outside. Otherwise when the merge comes I'm just flapping about wondering where they are ... death follows soon after.

 

The early missiles are actually pretty easy to dodge and I can usually manage to force a merge now, but generally get splashed by those off-boresight missile shots. You can dodge a few, but they fire so many that eventually one gets you.

 

I'm fairly new to modern jets (although I'm an experienced WWII pilot), but it certainly feels as if the Su-27 is holding most of the cards in this situation.

 

AI Su 27 are easy to defeat once you know how to handle it.

 

- Engage at high altitude

- Use ECM to delay their shot (they will burn through a little bit above 20Nm)

- shoot around 20 to 22Nm (so you will shoot almost at the same time). it doesn't matters if he shoots a few seconds earlier.

- turn away by 50°, dive and chaff (crank maneuver).

 

If the chaff doesn't decoy the R-27ER, anyway the Su 27 will go defensive once your missile is 10Nm from him.

And if you're not sure reverse the turn with full after burner (while keeping the lock).

By diving, you will keep the target in look up and deny his chaff effectiveness. Most of the time your Super 530D will stay on him.

 

Depending on the situation (if he's alone), you may press on him as he turns away and shoot a second time if he starts to reverse on you after evading the first Super 530D.

 

During the whole sequence, keep your speed around M0.9: SPEED IS LIFE !!!

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While the tips above are great, IMHO the best way to train your skill in any engagement is go to the MP or some says join a squadron. Try the hardest way in an air quake like in 104th server or Open Conflict and prepare to be wrecked, no need to be discouraged by that. Then review your flight in Tacview so you know what's wrong and develop your own tactics and experimen with it.

 

Cheers

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If we are only talking about PvP servers like the 104th, it may be better to avoid putting yourself in situations where you are meeting other (especially FC3) players head-on. Instead, observe their usual routes as they head into action and find a way to avoid coming into their radar scan area. A few of those FC3 planes are going to always out-range and out-shoot you so instead of fighting them head on, find a way to come in from a angle and a altitude that they don't expect.

 

The thing is, on the PvP dogfight servers, it usually kinda boils down to both sides just kinda taking off and meeting each other in the middle. The enemy players are going to expect you to follow that same route, don't. Be unpredictable and try to exploit lapses in situational awareness.

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Yep, but that's the hard way :smilewink:

 

Before going MP, to analyze some SP fight in Tacview is great to asses missile's behavior, so you don't panic when someone shoot at you.

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Thanks for the advice. I will try some of these against the AI. I find the slightly more predictable nature of the AI makes it a lot easier to maintain situational awareness.

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Spent time on open conflit lately and while I can dodge a lot of BVR missiles, the huge problem I have is that when I get to merge or close, then it's still BVR for me... I mean I have soon 2 or 3 bandits less than 10nm from me, but can't see anything in my radar... So I'm blind, turning around to try and see a bandit, but there is usually already one or 2 in my 6 I didn't even see coming....

 

How the hell are you able to keep track of the bad guys when getting close? Turning everywhere in auto lock HUD mode? Radar in 60° angle and turning?

 

Global issue for me is the closest I am, the blindest.... :(

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I mean I have soon 2 or 3 bandits less than 10nm from me, but can't see anything in my radar... So I'm blind, turning around to try and see a bandit, but there is usually already one or 2 in my 6 I didn't even see coming....

 

So I'm still definitely a beginner, but something that I've found really helpful I read on these forums. I think it was posted by <Blaze> but I can't find it now.

 

Anyway, he said not to spend too much time heads down and that this is a common beginner mistake in BVR. See the contact on the radar, look out the cockpit and work out whereabouts that'll be in relation to the terrain. Then do all your beaming and cranks and all the rest in relation to the terrain, and with eyes mostly out the cockpit. You can reference the radar and RWR now and again to check the situation hasn't changed, but mostly be eyes out looking for the bandit or manoeuvring relative to the terrain.

 

This has helped me a lot. Before I was finding exactly as you did, I did okay at longer ranges (where the radar works well) but up close I was just flapping about uselessly. I've very much started thinking of the radar as primarily a long-range tool, and that as things get closer I need to use the radar to help me transition to visual. You can actually spot contacts at quite a long range if you use the radar to help you know where to look.

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