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Why should I buy the F-5E Tiger II?


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Also while I like the Viggen more, oversimplification does not even begin to describe the sentence "F-5E is a good dogfighter, also the Viggen". Viggen can kinda dogfight, but is not really a good dogfighter, and certainly not as much as the Tiger.

 

Ha! Quick test: AI F-5E vs AI Viggen, face to face close range, both "excellent", 30.000 ft, 580 Kn, two sidewinder. Tell me who wins. Or better I tell you: the Viggen in 5 seconds after the merge.

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Ha! Quick test: AI F-5E vs AI Viggen, face to face close range, both "excellent", 30.000 ft, 580 Kn, two sidewinder. Tell me who wins. Or better I tell you: the Viggen in 5 seconds after the merge.

 

Two letters that completely invalidate the experiment: A and I :)

Modules:

MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

Mods:

A-4E, MB-339, Edge 540

 

Utility modules:

Combined Arms, NS 430 GPS

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Hej

 

So I´ve been fully seduced by DCS since I first tried it 4 weeks ago (reason: Viggen!) and been flying viggen since its release.

 

However I´m looking for the next module and the F-5E Tiger II looks very intresting, and by the looks of it, quite a contrast to the Viggen.

 

So, why do you like to fly F-5E Tiger II?

 

OP mentions nothing about price, All were saying is yes buy it because you can do X Y and Z with it.

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Off topic about the price? You don´t care about price when you buy something? You must be really wealthy :thumbup:

 

Viggen and F-5E are both 60 $.

 

Things that can be done with the Viggen and not with the F-5E:

- To fly all weather.

- To navegate by using INS.

- To land by using ILS.

- To use a complex A-G radar.

- To perform A2G precission attacks with missiles.

- To perform STOL operations.

 

Things that can be made with the F-5E and can´t be made with the Viggen:

- None. F-5E is a good dogfighter, also the Viggen. F-5E can perform A2G attacks with dumb bombs, guns and rockets. Also de Viggen.

if you compare the f-5 that also has 90's electronic package it probably be more effective still.

 

So, you get more profit for your money by buying the Viggen, also a really cool plane and a realistic simulation. And I´m sure that´s what most of the costumers now think when they chose a module to buy.

 

 

i am sorry but the f5 can drop LGB's and viggen cant and the viggen sucks in dogfight. also the f5 can carry bigger bomb load and bigger missile load. i much prefer the f5 and the viggen belongs in the 90's not among the f5 it has 90's electronic package so it should stay out of vietnam servers and stay food for fc3 planes.


Edited by shaunwallis21
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i am sorry but the f5 can drop LGB's and viggen cant and the viggen sucks in dogfight. also the f5 can carry bigger bomb load and bigger missile load. i much prefer the f5 and the viggen belongs in the 90's not among the f5 it has 90's electronic package so it should stay out of vietnam servers and stay food for fc3 planes.

 

You know nothing, Jon Snow :lol: F-5 can drop LGBs, but can´t designate targets, so it´s like launching dumb bombs, only more boring since you don´t even aim the weapons. Viggen only carries two sidewinders. Viggen carries 4. And mavericks, RB-15F anti-ship, command-guided RB-05A... F-5E only dumb bombs.

 

Belsimtek chose to simulate a pretty simple version of the F-5E: the one used by USAF and US NAVY only for training purposes. The Viggen is a real first-line all-weather fighter. Several air forces use the F-5E with better avionics and guided weapons: ILS, INS, IFF, Mavericks... My point is Belsimtek should upgrade the F-5E in order being a competitive product now the Viggen is in the market, same price, more value for your money. I would even pay... don´t know... maybe 10 bucks? for that kind of upgrade. Although free would be better :thumbup:

 

By the way, as I have said several times, the Viggen is a great dogfighter. Way better than the F-5E in ascending vertical maneuvers since is more powerfull. F-5E loses energy really fast and don´t recover it.


Edited by MasterCaution
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You know nothing, Jon Snow :lol: F-5 can drop LGBs, but can´t designate targets, so it´s like launching dumb bombs, only more boring since you don´t even aim the weapons. Viggen only carries two sidewinders. Viggen carries 4. And mavericks, RB-15F anti-ship, command-guided RB-05A... F-5E only dumb bombs.

 

Actually the Viggen can carry 6 Aim-9s

 

All 6 weapon pylons can handle the Rear Aspect RB 24=Aim-9B (Though no real point in carrying it since it had left service by the Time of the AJS 37 Modification) and RB 24J=Aim-9J/P (Which is the Standard Rear Aspect version and should be carried on the Outermost wing pylons if you need Aim-9s for self defense during Strike missions) and the 4 innermost can use the far more capable RB 74=Aim-9L.

 

(All 3 variants are based on the American variants Aim-9B/Aim-9J/P and Aim-9L respectively but with Swedish made modifications done to them)

 

Compared to the 2x Aim-9 of the F-5E

(And The RB 74 is a far better missile then the Aim-9P5 is).

 

And Though the AJS 37 is not really a fighter (as that was the Role of the later JA 37 Fighter Viggen with Completely new Avionics+Radar and with a better and more powerful engine) it is no slouch as it has a very powerful engine letting it accelerate very well and there are few aircraft that can outrun it on the deck (atm atleast).

 

So that is a massive advantage over the F-5E since the F-5E is somewhat lacking when it comes to Power / Acceleration.

 

But my suggestion to the OP is that if you want the F-5E get it.

 

Its a fun aircraft but its not as capable as the Viggen and uses much simpler systems as well as relying on completely manual weapons deliver when it comes to air-ground.

 

So if you simply want a Fun aircraft to play with or duel with Mig-21s in then the F-5E can be plenty of fun.

 

But if you want an aircraft to be more effective in air-air or air-ground then the F-5E wont give you that.

 

I Have both modules and i like the F-5E (Though i Love the Viggen) and though they are both from the Same time periods they are very different aircraft to operate / fly

(With the Viggen having advanced systems like a HUD + Navigational systems etc and Computer calculated target solutions etc and the F-5E being much more Basic / Hands with the pilot having to do everything himself)

 

If you want something more capable then the Viggen when it comes to air-air then the Mirage 2000 would be a better choice.

 

and If you want something dedicated to Air-Ground able to kill more units per sortie then the Viggen then getting either the A-10C or a Helicopter like the KA-50 might be a better choice.

 

But if you want the F-5E and you understand its limitations and accept them then im sure you will be able to enjoy it.


Edited by mattebubben
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Two letters that completely validate the experiment: total equality, not a better pilot wins, only better plane.

 

You don't seem to be too well acquited with DCS' AI and, well its... eccentricities :).

Modules:

MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

Mods:

A-4E, MB-339, Edge 540

 

Utility modules:

Combined Arms, NS 430 GPS

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You know nothing, Jon Snow :lol: F-5 can drop LGBs, but can´t designate targets, so it´s like launching dumb bombs, only more boring since you don´t even aim the weapons. Viggen only carries two sidewinders. Viggen carries 4. And mavericks, RB-15F anti-ship, command-guided RB-05A... F-5E only dumb bombs.

 

Belsimtek chose to simulate a pretty simple version of the F-5E: the one used by USAF and US NAVY only for training purposes. The Viggen is a real first-line all-weather fighter. Several air forces use the F-5E with better avionics and guided weapons: ILS, INS, IFF, Mavericks... My point is Belsimtek should upgrade the F-5E in order being a competitive product now the Viggen is in the market, same price, more value for your money. I would even pay... don´t know... maybe 10 bucks? for that kind of upgrade. Although free would be better :thumbup:

 

By the way, as I have said several times, the Viggen is a great dogfighter. Way better than the F-5E in ascending vertical maneuvers since is more powerfull. F-5E loses energy really fast and don´t recover it.

 

Call me weird but for me that what I love about the F-5E that we have, it is simple with no bling bling. It fly good, keep her in trim and you wont need an autopilot, she's agile but yet a stable platform that offer a great visibility. Noting like very low formation flying in the mountains with the smoke puff when coming out of the burners, those wing flex and the little "tomp" sound when the gear door close, just for that It's worted the 60$

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Really, guys, you don´t see what I´m trying to do here? You don´t see this is an EXCUSE to try to push Belsimtek to continue improving de F-5E?

 

What I´m saying is "Hey, Belsimsek, there is now a new aircraf in DCS World that is your direct competence in the market and even has the same price, so start improving real good your F-5E in order to compete of not to lose sales". The objective is, as I have said, to push the people of Belsimtek (that I suppose, read this forum) to continue de development of the F-5E, so we, the costumers, get a better aircraft.

 

Don´t you want ILS and INS, like the Swiss F-5E, in order of flying all wheater and performing deep attacks into enemy territory witouth TACAN? Don´t you want more weapons, as the maverick, in order of doing more missions, as SEAD? Don´t you want a more realistic simulation of the F-5E, with compressor stalls and flameouts simulated? I have said I would even pay some more money in order of having that kind of things (although, a 60 $ product should include those improvements for free), because I really like that aircraft. It's used right now ("Beta" version) in my country´s Air Force as advanced trainer, and was used time ago ("Alpha" version) as attack fighter. I like it a lot, that´s why I want it to be better.

 

But no, all you say is "Nah... the plane is good as it is, with limited avionics. Belsimtek, don´t care of improving it", and, as costumer, I don´t understand.

 

If us, costumers, push the developers in the forums to improve the products, we will have better products. If we act as fanboys, the developers will not find a reason to improve them.

 

I don´t know if you all work for Leatherneck and don´t want a better F-5E in order of selling more Viggens, or work for Belsimtek and are a bunch or lazy bottoms, or simply you are a bit "dense".


Edited by MasterCaution
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In my opinion the F-5E doesn't need improvement, at least not in the way you suggest. I want Belsimtek to fix the CBU-52 and fix a couple of smaller bugs, then the module will be a fantastic representation of the F-5E model they have chosen.

 

In the same way the lack of an INS or ILS doesn't diminish the value of the P-51D, it doesn't diminish the value of the F-5E.

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In my opinion the F-5E doesn't need improvement, at least not in the way you suggest. I want Belsimtek to fix the CBU-52 and fix a couple of smaller bugs, then the module will be a fantastic representation of the F-5E model they have chosen.

 

In the same way the lack of an INS or ILS doesn't diminish the value of the P-51D, it doesn't diminish the value of the F-5E.

 

OK. Now, tell me whose attitude is better for the community of simmers: mine, asking the developers to continue improving the plane in order of we all get a better product for the price, or yours, telling everyting is OK and they should only fix a couple of small problems :music_whistling:

 

By the way, as far as I know, P-51D never had INS or ILS when in service, but some countries purchased their F-5E with ILS and INS, use all-aspect sidewinder, mavericks, etc., so it´s not unrealistic a F-5E with those improvements. It´s just Belsimtek chose a simplier version as the used by USAF and NAVY for training purposes because is easier and faster to develop. Unrealistic is a F-5E with Swiss Air Force "skin" without INS.


Edited by MasterCaution
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How did this thread devolve into a F5E vs AJS Viggen? Two completely different airframes, with very different capabilites....

 

Why not F5E vs Spitfire while you are at it?

 

Baffling :)

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Really, guys, you don´t see what I´m trying to do here? You don´t see this is an EXCUSE to try to push Belsimtek to continue improving de F-5E?

 

What I´m saying is "Hey, Belsimsek, there is now a new aircraf in DCS World that is your direct competence in the market and even has the same price, so start improving real good your F-5E in order to compete of not to lose sales". The objective is, as I have said, to push the people of Belsimtek (that I suppose, read this forum) to continue de development of the F-5E, so we, the costumers, get a better aircraft.

 

Don´t you want ILS and INS, like the Swiss F-5E, in order of flying all wheater and performing deep attacks into enemy territory witouth TACAN? Don´t you want more weapons, as the maverick, in order of doing more missions, as SEAD? Don´t you want a more realistic simulation of the F-5E, with compressor stalls and flameouts simulated? I have said I would even pay some more money in order of having that kind of things (although, a 60 $ product should include those improvements for free), because I really like that aircraft. It's used right now ("Beta" version) in my country´s Air Force as advanced trainer, and was used time ago ("Alpha" version) as attack fighter. I like it a lot, that´s why I want it to be better.

 

But no, all you say is "Nah... the plane is good as it is, with limited avionics. Belsimtek, don´t care of improving it", and, as costumer, I don´t understand.

 

If us, costumers, push the developers in the forums to improve the products, we will have better products. If we act as fanboys, the developers will not find a reason to improve them.

 

I don´t know if you all work for Leatherneck and don´t want a better F-5E in order of selling more Viggens, or work for Belsimtek and are a bunch or lazy bottoms, or simply you are a bit "dense".

 

You seem to be under the idea that Belstimtek setteled for this model of F-5E because they wanted it less formidable.

 

And not because its probably the only variant they had Complete information for.

 

They have stated earlier for example that they would consider adding the Maverick support if they had all the needed information around it

(How the Maverick Compatible Display worked and how the weapon would have been operated etc)

So if they got all that information (preferably by getting their hands on the Manuals for a F-5E with that display / ability)

then it would be likely they could make it happen but if they dont have the information they need there is nothing they can do.

(Unless you want them to just Guesstimate on how things worked instead of Simulating the Aircraft properly)

 

So if you want them to make a More advanced F-5E dont berate them...

Try to find them the information they need to make a more capable F-5E instead...

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things the f5 can do that the viggen cant. Turn.

 

the fact that you are comparing a old plane to a old plane with modern electronics that still ineffective as hell in modern era makes your argument sad. enjoy being food for modern planes . the f5 is fine as it is there is no improvement needed. your attitude needs improvement.

 

you comparing the the weapon systems of the viggen to the f5 makes you look like a modern era ez mode kid.


Edited by shaunwallis21
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How did this thread devolve into a F5E vs AJS Viggen? Two completely different airframes, with very different capabilites....

 

Why not F5E vs Spitfire while you are at it?

 

Baffling :)

 

Yeah, very different capabilities between the Viggen and the block of the F-5E belsimtek chose to develop. There are other blocks of the F-5E more similar to de Viggen, since have ILS, IFF, INS, mavericks, etc. More avionics and weapons means more variety in missions, that means more fun. Your really don´t see that.

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You seem to be under the idea that Belstimtek setteled for this model of F-5E because they wanted it less formidable.

 

And not because its probably the only variant they had Complete information for.

 

They have stated earlier for example that they would consider adding the Maverick support if they had all the needed information around it

(How the Maverick Compatible Display worked and how the weapon would have been operated etc)

So if they got all that information (preferably by getting their hands on the Manuals for a F-5E with that display / ability)

then it would be likely they could make it happen but if they dont have the information they need there is nothing they can do.

(Unless you want them to just Guesstimate on how things worked instead of Simulating the Aircraft properly)

 

So if you want them to make a More advanced F-5E dont berate them...

Try to find them the information they need to make a more capable F-5E instead...

 

Yeah, for sure. Leathernek found information for mavericks for the Viggen, but Belsimteck can´t for the F-5E. And of course they can´t find information about ILS, IFF or INS as used by Swiss Air Force in his F-5E, for example, but Leathernet can find information about those kind of avionics in a way less exported and known aircraft as the Viggen... Well, that case, maybe Belsintek should learn from Leathernek...

 

By the way, I´m A COSTUMER, not a fanboy. I don´t have to "find information" for them, they have to find information for me, because I pay for a product. If they would pay me, I would try to find information, buy it, or whatever.


Edited by MasterCaution
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The thing about the Viggen is that most relevant information is easily available from the Swedish national archives. This is NOT the case with the various upgraded export versions of the F-5E/F. There are flight manuals and weapons delivery manuals for the F-5E available, but these do not cover anything featured in the upgraded versions of the F5. System information and and operational manuals for US made equipment is controlled under ITAR arms export regulations, and are not simply given out to a Belarusian company that wants to sell an entertainment product to flight sim geeks like us.

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There are no F-5 that are similar to Viggen. There are however, a few later upgrade packages that can be considered more advanced than Viggen, however, those at least mid-late 90s or even 2000s stuff, and are out of question already.

 

Baseline F-5? Yes there are some with Mavericks, some with INS navigation and a few with refueling. None of them are ground breaking stuff.

 

Why do we "need" it to be another variant in the first place?

 

Belsimtek chose F-5E3 for:

- Being the one with the best documentation that was available for them, the one that can be made with a focus on "as real as it gets" without gameplay guesstimations like certain other modules unfortunately do, to satiate requests like yours.

- For being a really good match to MiG-21Bis

 

Which is better, pushing devs to cave in for every random Joe's feature requests, or getting modules with as real features as possible, and of iconic and cool aircraft, rather than what makes the most scores for you in game? Sure as hell the former in my, and many others opinion, and that is precisely why we are opposing your point.

 

BTW, it is "customer" or "consumer", not "costumer", last one means something else :).

Modules:

MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

Mods:

A-4E, MB-339, Edge 540

 

Utility modules:

Combined Arms, NS 430 GPS

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Yeah, for sure. Leathernek found information for mavericks for the Viggen, but Belsimteck can´t for the F-5E. And of course they can´t find information about ILS, IFF or INS as used by Swiss Air Force in his F-5E, for example, but Leathernet can find information about those kind of avionics in a way less exported and known aircraft as the Viggen... Well, that case, maybe Belsintek should learn from Leathernek...

 

By the way, I´m A COSTUMER, not a fanboy. I don´t have to "find information" for them, they have to find information for me, because I pay for a product. If they would pay me, I would try to find information, buy it, or whatever.

 

i dont like modern equipment in my old planes i prefer skilled combat. like that guy said go compare the spitfire are f5 while you are at it. ill enjoy my more skilled more immersive game play that doesnt include boring ass guided munitions.

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i dont like modern equipment in my old planes i prefer skilled combat. like that guy said go compare the spitfire are f5 while you are at it. ill enjoy my more skilled more immersive game play that doesnt include boring ass guided munitions.

 

amen

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Yeah, very different capabilities between the Viggen and the block of the F-5E belsimtek chose to develop. There are other blocks of the F-5E more similar to de Viggen, since have ILS, IFF, INS, mavericks, etc. More avionics and weapons means more variety in missions, that means more fun. Your really don´t see that.

 

The block they have chosen to develop is the most numerous block, representative of a mid-late E model, and something that is close to what would be found in the USAF as an aggressor. Yes, there are more capable versions that they could have simulated, assuming they could get their hands on the info, the Thai air force (for example) upgraded their E models to have modern avionics, HMCS and fire a wider range of missiles. The cockpit is something like this:

 

A0516747314102722215.jpg

 

The "problem" then is that it is no longer a good representation of the iconic aggressor of Red Flag fame, it's a completely different feel, with an impostor paint job. You've lost one of the main reasons to fly it.

 

You are conflating simulation quality with aircraft capability, they are not the same thing. For the same reason a simulation of a Mk 24 Spitfire is not inherently "better" than one of the more iconic Mk IX Spitfire, a modern super upgraded F-5 is not an improvement on the more basic Aggressor F-5E, assuming the degree of care taken is equal on both.

 

tl/dr; If you want the absolute most capable and versatile aircraft for your buck, buy the Viggen. If you want to fly an iconic aggressor, the F5E is you bag.


Edited by Flying Penguin

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Yeah, for sure. Leathernek found information for mavericks for the Viggen, but Belsimteck can´t for the F-5E. And of course they can´t find information about ILS, IFF or INS as used by Swiss Air Force in his F-5E, for example, but Leathernet can find information about those kind of avionics in a way less exported and known aircraft as the Viggen... Well, that case, maybe Belsintek should learn from Leathernek...

 

By the way, I´m A COSTUMER, not a fanboy. I don´t have to "find information" for them, they have to find information for me, because I pay for a product. If they would pay me, I would try to find information, buy it, or whatever.

...

Leatherneck had access to AJS 37 Viggens as well as all the Data for the AJS 37 thus they were able to completely simulate its systems and weapons.

 

Belsimtek likely had the same type of access and information about the F-5E but only for certain Blocks of F-5E thus that is the variant they modeled as its the one they had the information about.

 

And the majority of F-5Es did not have Maverick Capability / INS etc so the manuals etc needed to simulate those would likely be harder to come by

unless they managed to establish contact with one of the nations operating F-5Es with those capabilities and were able to get the documentations from them.

 

DCS is not about making an aircraft as capable as possible.

 

Its about simulating that aircraft as well as possible.

 

And for that they need as much information about it as possible to be able to simulate its systems correctly.

There are differences between the F-5E variants in how the cockpit is layed out and how they are operated based on what equipment they had etc.

 

So in order to simulate a feature they would require extensive information

(preferably a manual) in how they were operated etc.

 

For example this is the cockpit of a Taiwanese F-5E with AGM-65 capability (as Factory standard not a later upgrade)

0959107-v20-16.jpg

 

As you can see there are changes in cockpit placement and the Radar display is different (and AGM-65 capable) so the Radar display at a minimum does not operate like the radar display they have information on so they would require documentation on how it was operated and how it looked when active etc if they wanted to simulate it.

 

Same with INS since we might now how INS systems operate on other aircraft but without the exact documentation we dont know exactly how it would have operated for F-5Es with a Certain INS system. (Or otherwise they would simply have to make educated guesses about how they "Think" things would work).

 

It was most likely pretty easy for Leatherneck to get most of the information they needed for the AJS 37 the Information is readily available and the fact that most of the Development Team was Swedish made it even easier (and also made it so they did not require translation assistance etc).

And there are also plenty of Viggens on Museums and including several AJS 37 Cockpits converted into Simulators etc

and they apparently were able to get a significant time in and around Viggens to get everything right.

 

Where as most of the F-5Es differed from eachother from user to user (due to customer Needs) so they needed to get information for a Particular F-5E block not just F-5Es in general (as what was true for 1 F-5E might not have been true for another) where as the AJS 37 was standardized (so all AJS 37s were more or less identical).

 

I might even hazard to say that Leatherneck might have had a easier time getting information for the AJS 37 then Belsimtek might have had to get all the information to completely simulate the F-5E-3.


Edited by mattebubben
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I have to say one thing, and I don´t care if I´m going to be banned from the forum: after two days of debate, I can´t find a single opinion that don´t come from "fanboyism". As we say in spanish, "sostenerla y no enmendarla".

 

You think that this forum is for licking developer´s asses? ("Everything is OK, don´t change a thing, we don´t want all-weather operations, we don´t want more variety of missions, we don´t want more realism") Your prefer a lesser product? You all go against the one single guy that asks for improvements and to continue the development of the product? It´s OK. But I have to say: YOU ARE NOT DOING ANY FAVOR TO THE COMUNITY OF SIMMERS.

 

As customer (thanks, WinterH), to have a critical attitud and ask for better productos for the price you pay, is healthy. To be a fanboy, not.


Edited by MasterCaution
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