Blackouts in Spitfire

[Krupi]

Does anybody else find that they happen more in the spitfire than in any other aircraft?

 

I get the impression it takes a hell of a lot longer to recover as well, how is the system modelled is it based on G or changed per

A/C?

Edited February 15, 2017 by Krupi

[Yo-Yo]

The system is the same.

[Krupi]

Thanks for the quick reply Yo-Yo, so it is just the "sensitivity"/balance of the elevators that creates this impression?

 

Also what is your thoughts of this?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=183120

[DefaultFace]

Apparently the spit doesn't have stick forces on the elevators yet. From when I've flown it definitely seems like this contributes to the jerkier stick movements resulting in sudden blackouts.

[DieHard]

Does anybody else find that they happen more in the spitfire than in any other aircraft?

 

I get the impression it takes a hell of a lot longer to recover as well, how is the system modelled is it based on G or changed per

A/C?

 

+1

 

LOL!

 

Way too easy to blackout compared to 109 or 190 and extreme maneuvers.

[HeadHunter52]

I was snapping wings and blacking out quite a bit, with my old Logitech Attack 3 stick. I just upgraded to a TM 16000m stick, and I haven't snapped wings, and I only blacked out once. I can approach complete blackout, and hang around in tunnel vision for a few seconds more reliably.

 

The TM stick has a greater throw -very noticeable. This gives me a greater range to work within, and I'm fairly certain it's helping quite a bit.

[flyco]

I find red-out a problem in the Spitfire. While slow rolling I pushed slighty to keep the nose up and the screen went red,very quickly, and then immediately black. It remained at black for at least 5 - 10 seconds, at which point I hit the ground. Since I began the roll at about 500 ft agl, I could not have pulled enough to cause a black-out, nor do I believe that I pushed hard enough to cause a red-out in the first place.

 

I routinely do low level aeros, spins and stalls in any new DCS aircraft to explore its envelope, and have never had a problem with red-out previously. I have flown outside (i.e. inverted) turns in several DCS aircraft, including the P-51, without this sudden red-out. I accept that the Spitfire is very sensitive on its controls, but I cannot believe that this is normal.

 

Has anyone experienced similar problems?

 

As a slightly wider observation, I find the DCS black-out very frustrating. As a one-time RAF Jet-Provost QFI, I was well, used to students (and QFIs) carrying out aeros with me as a bystander (OK bysitter!), and I adopted the technique of straining as require to delay the onset (no g-suit in the JP) With DCS this is not an option (even so I find myself tensing and squeezing my leg muscles when 'pulling' g) but at some arbitrary point it all goes dark very suddenly. I accept that there is no alternative in non-professional or affordable simulation, but it is annoying. I am afraid I routinely fly with black-outs de-selected.

[OnlyforDCS]

flyco, no disrespect really, but the Spitfire allows you to push and pull a significant G-load, much more so than the P51D. It's flight model is also not complete, as some have already mentioned you can easily pull and push the elevator much quicker than any real pilot in a real Spit could, flying at high speed. When you take that into account, you can blackout and redout in seconds, and even snap wings easily in the Spit.

[philstyle]

but the Spitfire allows you to push and pull a significant G-load, much more so than the P51D. It's flight model is also not complete, as some have already mentioned you can easily pull and push the elevator much quicker than any real pilot in a real Spit could, flying at high speed. When you take that into account, you can blackout and redout in seconds, and even snap wings easily in the Spit.

 

Yes, it seems (from what I can gather reading the threads) that the absence of control stiffening is causing this at the moment.

Also, I reduced my curve-saturation significantly for the spit. I guess that if the control-stiffening is implemented this effect might be reduced. . .

 

Incidentally, did you buy the Spit yet and try it out? Any thoughts if you have?

[OnlyforDCS]

Yes I did. Truly a joy to fly so far. I do find her a lot harder to handle than the Mustang, especially on the ground but nothing impossible really, and she seems to manage those tight turns very impressively. I don't use curves on the stick, as I fly with a force feedback joystick, but some curves on the rudder are practically a must for this bird. Im having trouble with engine management in combat, but have found out that was more user error on my part than anything else really. I watched your engine stress tests earlier today, and from those I learned that you if you stall her with max boost and high RPM you are basically dead. So I guess thanks are in order, nice videos, keep them coming. :)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Yes I did. Truly a joy to fly so far. I do find her a lot harder to handle than the Mustang, especially on the ground but nothing impossible really, and she seems to manage those tight turns very impressively. I don't use curves on the stick, as I fly with a force feedback joystick, but some curves on the rudder are practically a must for this bird. Im having trouble with engine management in combat, but have found out that was more user error on my part than anything else really. I watched your engine stress tests earlier today, and from those I learned that you if you stall her with max boost and high RPM you are basically dead. So I guess thanks are in order, nice videos, keep them coming. :)

 

if you haven't already, try to map the brakes to an axis if you have one...makes groundhandling much easier, and actually i think a joy with the spit...p51 will still stay by far the easiest on the ground though.

 

not using any curves is also my approach, but i dont use them for the rudder either...you will get used to make only slight inputs with the rudder, and then its actually pretty straight forward, even with the missing stick forces.

 

engine managment is also i think pretty straight forward in the spit...as Yo-Yo mentioned, try not to go below 180...that way you can go full power all day long without any trouble. and i personally prefer to just lower the nose to not go below that speed, instead of throttling back, unless im in direct shooting position...that way, you will still outturn everything around you, but more important, in the end you will most likely have more and more energy relatively to your oponent, ending up above him with more speed, and at that point, if you dont mess it up completely, he is done....

[Krupi]

if you haven't already, try to map the brakes to an axis if you have one...makes groundhandling much easier, and actually i think a joy with the spit...p51 will still stay by far the easiest on the ground though.

 

not using any curves is also my approach, but i dont use them for the rudder either...you will get used to make only slight inputs with the rudder, and then its actually pretty straight forward, even with the missing stick forces.

 

engine managment is also i think pretty straight forward in the spit...as Yo-Yo mentioned, try not to go below 180...that way you can go full power all day long without any trouble. and i personally prefer to just lower the nose to not go below that speed, instead of throttling back, unless im in direct shooting position...that way, you will still outturn everything around you, but more important, in the end you will most likely have more and more energy relatively to your oponent, ending up above him with more speed, and at that point, if you dont mess it up completely, he is done....

 

Sorry David have to call rubbish on your last paragraph... Unless you are fighting a newbie the 109/190 pilot will have used his great speed advantage to get out of that position

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Well if they just run, or strictly stay on boom n zoom tactics executed perfectly then yes...then they will stay above you...but without being a real threat...then it could be considered as disengaging almost..once they do start to trade their energy for angles, they are playing to your rules

[Krupi]

Yes and if they lose their advantage then they are not a component pilot or lack patience. It is very rare to come across someone who will do that most just run until they are back into the advantage.

 

The lack of speed in the spitfire is a death sentence against these rare fast Luftwaffe aircraft.

 

Anyway back on topic, until stick forces are out it is frustrating but you have to be very very gentle with the elevator

Edited February 24, 2017 by Krupi

[DefaultFace]

Sure the 109 can run away. Mustangs do the same thing. They get outturned and then run back to base. The only way to force them to turn again is to have a wingman above you to dive on them.

 

If you force a 109 slow you can certainly out accellerate them at low speed and get close enough to have at least a short shooting window. If you jump a 109 and are close its not that easy to run away either.

 

Now cue comments about we need a mk XIV so we have absolutely every advantage over our enemy. That would be fair huh?

[flyco]

I must offer the DCS Spitfire and its modellers an apology regarding my earlier criticism of its g modelling. I have since flown some trial flights and looked at the results in the TacView recording. It seems to me that the black-out sets in at about 5.5 - 6.0 g, and the red-out at minus 3-3.5 g, both very reasonable values for an in-practice fighter pilot without g suit. certainly I was not able to reproduce the sudden red to black out that I experienced yesterday - I must put that down to a gremlin - very common among aircrew of the 1940s.. Mea Culpa!

 

Not to appear downhearted though, I will put in my bit about the 'engine blowing up at 179 mph' controversy. The Mk IV Pilots notes give a recommended climb speed of 180 mph, with a setting of 2850rpm and +12" boost for up to an hour. Given that, I do think that the current failure rate is a little too harsh. Like many, I find that as little as 15 secs at anything less than 180 mph will, almost inevitably produce the blow-up, even at 2650/7", which is what I use to dogfight - increasing to 2650/12" only briefly.

 

Finally, on the subject of control curves. I find that the Spitfire is the only DCS aircraft in which I do not use curves for the controls. This is due to the sensitivity of the elevators in particular. Unless you are in trim, your stick will not be at the neutral point and so you will be away from the flattened part of the curve. This, together with the very slow rate of the trim motion makes steady elevator application very difficult. I did briefly set up an analogue elevator trim, using a 3-turn pot and a large wheel, but, while it worked, I could not get used to trimming by hand, despite having flown many hours on aircraft that had such a system - I think this was due to the lack of feed-back to the stick that you get as you use a trimmer wheel in real life.

 

However, it must be said in closing that I do thoroughly enjoy the Spitfire - Roll on Normandy!

[Krupi]

The spitfire has a very slight window agreed however if they try to climb hard they will blow the engine so this closes the window even further.

 

Having a mustang to try and stop the 109 from running is the only thing that can stop a 109 from running and coming back for another pass that is a fact.

 

LOL so the boot cannot be on the other foot eh? Luckily the XIV is arriving regardless of what you think :D

 

I don't actually agree, I think the k4 vs XIV will be much more equal than an iX vs K4

[CripesAMighty]

Would love to hear from ED about how they modelled the cooling system for the luftwaffe A/C. It seems like they've massively overestimated the contribution of MW50 to reduced engine temperatures.

 

A 20-40K reduction in charge air temperature and the associated cooling during combustion of the richer mixture does not negate the fact that automatically actuated cooling systems in aircraft are trying to achieve a dynamic equilibrium based on ram air. It shouldnt matter if you reduce the charge/exhaust temperature by 40K if you've got no ram air entering the radiator to exchange and remove heat from the system.

 

Right now the K4 can climb with an average IAS of 110MPH at maximum ATA with MW50 enabled from 1000m to 7000m at ISA without overheating. Would be great to hear from an official ED source about specific system parameters and how theyre modelled.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

The spitfire has a very slight window agreed however if they try to climb hard they will blow the engine so this closes the window even further.

 

Having a mustang to try and stop the 109 from running is the only thing that can stop a 109 from running and coming back for another pass that is a fact.

 

LOL so the boot cannot be on the other foot eh? Luckily the XIV is arriving regardless of what you think :D

 

I don't actually agree, I think the k4 vs XIV will be much more equal than an iX vs K4

 

 

yeah, i know, it can be frustrating to see the oponent just to run away, and you cant do much about it...but in that situation, just imagine, that its just as frustrating for the guy running because he knows that he cant do anything else without getting into serious trouble....remembering this will remain you more calm, and keep you fly more disciplined....and having patience is key, as most of the german pilots, will stay disciplined only up to a certain point...if the first or second boom n zoom attacks didnt work out, most of them will keep trying with more and more commitment...out of frustration, they will fly more and more to your rules until you actually have that advantage you need...

 

right now, every aircraft has certain advantages and disadvantages over its enemies....i assume that the spit xiv will change that for the first time, and i think it will be the first aircraft which outdoes its enemies(except 190s roll rate) in every discipline...and even if in some aspects its only a close advantage, it will still dominate in every phase of the fight....so i think that will be a new chapter for dcs ww2, and while im really looking forward to fly against it, i dont expect it to be even at all...not even close tbh...still, absolutely looking forward to fight it....

[DefaultFace]

+1

[Krupi]

-1 I am afraid to say David...

 

yeah, i know, it can be frustrating to see the oponent just to run away, and you cant do much about it...but in that situation, just imagine, that its just as frustrating for the guy running because he knows that he cant do anything else without getting into serious trouble....remembering this will remain you more calm, and keep you fly more disciplined....and having patience is key, as most of the german pilots, will stay disciplined only up to a certain point...if the first or second boom n zoom attacks didnt work out, most of them will keep trying with more and more commitment...out of frustration, they will fly more and more to your rules until you actually have that advantage you need...

 

I have been in this situation many times and you are only talking about a 1 on 1 scenario in reality this is rubbish. What you end up with in reality is a group of spitfire desperately turning to avoid the boom and zooms of a series of 109's much akin to a group of fish, a shoal steadily getting worn down.

 

This is what you see online currently and to say that it is frustrating to "have to try again" when your opposition is finding it frustrating to simply stay alive in such a situation is quite outrageous David.

 

Now a P-51 with its speed can help however they can't climb particularly well, unless they retain speed which is not the case in most scenarios I have seen... so again advantage to the red team.

 

right now, every aircraft has certain advantages and disadvantages over its enemies....i assume that the spit xiv will change that for the first time, and i think it will be the first aircraft which outdoes its enemies(except 190s roll rate) in every discipline...and even if in some aspects its only a close advantage, it will still dominate in every phase of the fight....so i think that will be a new chapter for dcs ww2, and while im really looking forward to fly against it, i dont expect it to be even at all...not even close tbh...still, absolutely looking forward to fight it....

 

I don't think so, nothing will come close to the Dora in speed down low so that will remain a great threat to the XIV and the K4 will have much the same speed, the 109 much greater fire power with a 30mm cannon and the spit a slight advantage in climb... so I think it will in fact be a lot closer a fight.

 

To say that the status quo is a case of aircraft having an advantage other each other is quite preposterous notion when all you have to do is look at the stats on Air kills from the Burning Skies server....

 

 

http://burning-skies.vioo.com.ua/en/pilots/4/air-rating.html

 

In the top 20 we have 2 allied pilots and even then one of them has a number of his kills flying a 190... clearly your supposed advantage is in fact meaningless!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Krupi

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

yeah you know Krupi, i think we are drifting way off topic now, and i'm not in the mood to start a fight with you here now for now reason while we are obviously talking aside each other i think now....anyway, im on the acg server today...and i offer to fly the spit against you in an aircraft of your choice...

:)

[Krupi]

One on one fights prove utterly nothing and you know that as well as I do David, you have been flying constantly in DCS when I got fed up months ago due to the arrival of the 109 and slowly the blue team stopped turning up so flying the Dora lost all enjoyment... A 1 on 1 with you right now, you will win what does that prove.

 

Now next time the stats are deleted and you flew a spit for a month to compare that would be very interesting.

 

Facts say all that needs to be said and they are very telling, no one other than the hardcore pilots will continue flying if all they are doing is going up against aircraft that have all the key advantages over them... and this outing into WW2 for our community will come to a very bitter end compared to the original hopes solely down to a poor choice in aircraft.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Krupi

[Captain Orso]

I think the biggest issue we have is the mission itself. The aircraft grew into their roles throughout the war, and if they didn't meet the requirements, they were modified and tweaked or replaced until an aircraft was found to fulfill the requirements.

 

If you followed Bunyap's Youtube playlist "Four Months in the Life of a Spitfire IX Wing"

you will have noticed that the German flights encountered were not just flying out to cause trouble, or even exert air dominance. Although they did at times outnumber the British flights they encountered, they were practically always on the defensive. Why? Because they didn't have the aircraft and pilots to waist on trying to gain a local air superiority. They had missions to fulfill, and any loss of an aircraft would have been far more missed than two Spitfires they might shoot down (which was generally not the case anyway).

 

The Allies had moved far beyond the days of the Battle of Britain, where every aircraft and every pilot counted on both sides. Allied losses were replaced almost immediately, which although Bunyap did not go into it, I know the Germans could not do.

 

So, in reality, the German's mission, from Bunyap's reporting, was ground striking a target and getting away with all aircraft, while the British was generally, to prevent just that, although they also did have some ground strike missions.

 

So if the mission gave no point for downed Allied aircraft, and if possible there were some way to penalize the Germans, beyond point score, like a several minute delay in getting a fresh aircraft if a pilot lost one, it would far better represent the situation, and force the Germans to fight an entirely different battle.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

One on one fights prove utterly nothing and you know that as well as I do David, you have been flying constantly in DCS when I got fed up months ago due to the arrival of the 109 and slowly the blue team stopped turning up... You will win what does that prove.

 

Now next time the stats are deleted and you flew a spit for a month to compare that would be very interesting.

 

Facts say all that needs to be said and they are very telling, no one other than the hardcore pilots will continue flying if all they are doing is going up against aircraft that have all the key advantages over them... and this outing into WW2 for our community will come to a very bitter end compared to the original hopes solely down to a poor choice in aircraft.

 

ok....i think last comment from me now in this topic....if 1 on 1 does not tell anything in regards of relative aircraft performance, then i dont know what is...

anyway, if 1v1 does not prove anything as you say, where i would disagree, then the only logical result would be, that teamwork does make the difference...and lack of teamwork has nothing to do with the spitfire and how much boost it has, or how fast it is, or whatever, but has only to do with the pilot(s) in question. best regards my friend.